How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Skywalker]

Ok....



Right. It's like there were different stories about Jesus floating around, and then at some point they were combined.


Yeah-yeah, we've been through this. All of that is refuted by Jeremiah 31:36.

But if you want to understand what Paul is saying and what John is saying then you need to look at it from a Jewish perspective.

The Old Covenant and New Covenant in and of themselves are not mutually exclusive, but certain teachings of the Old Covenant are mutually exclusive with the New Covenant. Beware of the Hebrew Roots Movement

Hebrew Roots cult members believe that the precious name of “Jesus” is a corruption of the western world. Folks, the Bible says in Philippians 2:9-10, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.” There is no name above the name of Jesus. Yeshua is am imposter. Don't fall for the Devil's deception that “Yeshua” means Jesus, it doesn't! Yeshua has its roots in the satanic Hebrew Roots Movement. The Holy Bible says that the precious name of “Jesus” is above EVERY OTHER NAME!!!

Curt perverts the Bible, twisting Ephesians 5:22 to mean Jews and Gentiles uniting in a special place for the Spirit to abide, but he ignores the context of the passage, which speaks about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in every true Christian believer (whether Jew or Gentile alike)...

Ephesians 2:18-22, “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

This passage simply refers to the human body as a temple of the Holy Spirit, for the believer only. By faith in Christ, Jews and Gentiles are ONE in Christ. Galatians 3:29, “And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” This does not mean Jews today have their own plan of salvation separate from the Gentiles, which is what Curt is claiming.

The following is very subtle and deceptive to the reader...

Unfortunately, today the message of The One New Man is sometimes misunderstood. Many see the intent as to “put people under the law,” or “return them to Judaism.” Nowhere in the message of The One New Man do we suggest a return to Old Testament legalism. Our mission is simply to broaden and disseminate the liberating knowledge of the roots of our Christian faith.

 

[Skywalker]

That does not prove that the first Christians agreed with Judaism.

The first Christians practiced Judaism but not in the rabbinic form of Judaism. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

The inclusion of non-Jews led to a growing split between Jewish Christians (i.e. the Jewish followers of Jesus) and non-Jewish Christians. From the latter, Nicene Christianity eventually arose, while mainstream Judaism developed into Rabbinic Judaism. Jewish Christians drifted apart from mainstream Judaism, eventually becoming a minority strand which had mostly disappeared by the fifth century. Jewish–Christian gospels have been lost except for fragments, so there is considerable uncertainty as to the scriptures used by this group.

 

[Skywalker]

Ok....



Right. It's like there were different stories about Jesus floating around, and then at some point they were combined.


Yeah-yeah, we've been through this. All of that is refuted by Jeremiah 31:36.

But if you want to understand what Paul is saying and what John is saying then you need to look at it from a Jewish perspective.

Jeremiah 31:36 is consistent with the New Covenant having to do with the Messiah. Why do you believe that the Jewish beliefs of the early rabbis is more based on the scriptures than that of the Jewish Christians? Jesus was a rabbi, even though he wasn't a rabbi in the definition of rabbinic Judaism.

New Covenant Prophecy (Jeremiah 31) - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

 

[rosends]

At this point I might as well tell you that I learned it is a comment in one of the Talmuds (probably the Babylonian) that the messiah would die. Leaves things open. If Jesus did not say what he did at Matthew 24 (nation rising against nation, war and pestilence happening), I might go along with your view that Jesus is not the messiah. It's interesting that so many disagree with what it all means.

Can you show me what talmudic passage you refer to? And as I reject texts like Matthew, it is not a useful rhetorical tool.

 

[Skywalker]

Judaism and Christianity were not the same when Jesus was on the earth. There were those who believed Jesus, and there were those that were not in harmony with him.

The Jewish people who believed in Jesus were just as Jewish as the Pharisees who didn't believe Jesus. There were religious leaders within traditional Judaism who believed in Jesus. The Pharisees Who Believed

The disciples believed in both Judaism and Christianity, even though they didn't believe in rabbinic Judaism. They were not less believers in Judaism because they didn't believe in the rabbinic, official, religious definition of Judaism. People believe that Judaism and Christianity are mutually exclusive because they are considered different religions in this dispensation of history due to historical reasons. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

The inclusion of non-Jews led to a growing split between Jewish Christians (i.e. the Jewish followers of Jesus) and non-Jewish Christians. From the latter, Nicene Christianity eventually arose, while mainstream Judaism developed into Rabbinic Judaism.

Linguistics and semantics doesn't mean it's impossible to be both Christian and Jewish.

 

[dybmh]

Christianity and Judaism being classified as different religions now, and people saying Christianity is a relationship not a religion, doesn't mean that the two beliefs couldn't have ever existed in the same category. Messianic Jews sometimes say they are Jewish Christians. They describe themselves as two distinct bt not mutually exclusive, categories, in one.

If you ever have any guesses to the riddle, let me know. You have everything you need to figure it out.

 

[Skywalker]

That does not prove that the first Christians agreed with Judaism.

As they exist today, Judaism and Christianity are different religions. But that doesn't mean they aren't gray areas or that Christianity and Judaism have absolute definitions. Messianic Jews are also called Jewish Christians.

 

[blü 2]

Isaiah 9:6 calls the Messiah the Everlasting Father. A son can be a father. All father are sons.

Ah yes, the Tanakh using the term 'God' as an honorific.

But that doesn't help you with Jesus, for two reasons

First, as I said, Jesus doesn't qualify as a Jewish messiah, being neither a civil, military or religious leader nor anointed in accordance with Jewish custom, so even if we read Isaiah 9:6 as a messianic prophecy, it's not about Jesus.

And second, in Paul, in Mark, in Matthew, in Luke and in John ─ and indeed in

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God;​

[...]

Thus we see that Jesus repeatedly denies he's God and never claims he's God, Paul says Jesus is not God, whoever wrote 1 Timothy and whoever wrote 1 John say Jesus is not God.

Therefore if you're right and Jesus is God then Jesus, as I keep pointing out, is also a liar and deceiver, one whose word can't be trusted.

Which brings us yet again to the point ─ what else do you say Jesus lied about or deliberately misrepresented?

 

[Skywalker]

If you ever have any guesses to the riddle, let me know. You have everything you need to figure it out.

Following the New and Old Covenant are distinct enough to be considered different religions, but that doesn't mean that the term Jewish Christian is like a spouse also having the office of a friend. Only in the linguistic, semantic, sense, or the historical sense might Christianity and Judaism be mutually exclusive faiths.

 

[Skywalker]

Ah yes, the Tanakh using the term 'God' as an honorific.

But that doesn't help you with Jesus, for two reasons

First, as I said, Jesus doesn't qualify as a Jewish messiah, being neither a civil, military or religious leader nor anointed in accordance with Jewish custom, so even if we read Isaiah 9:6 as a messianic prophecy, it's not about Jesus.

And second, in Paul, in Mark, in Matthew, in Luke and in John ─ and indeed in

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God;​

[...]

Thus we see that Jesus repeatedly denies he's God and never claims he's God, Paul says Jesus is not God, whoever wrote 1 Timothy and whoever wrote 1 John say Jesus is not God.

Therefore if you're right and Jesus is God then Jesus, as I keep pointing out, is also a liar and deceiver, one whose word can't be trusted.

Which brings us yet again to the point ─ what else do you say Jesus lied about or deliberately misrepresented?

Why would there be doubts about Isaiah:9 itself being about Jesus, apart from Jesus not being a civil or military leader? Jesus was a religious leader and Messiah means anointed one. Jewish Christianity was just as Jewish as Rabbinic Judaism, outside of the strict anthropological, linguistic, and historical definition of religion. To some people Messianic Judaism could be a relationship, not a religion.

God the Son is the Mediator within the Trinity. Jesus didn't just die so that we could be forgiven of our sins, but also that we could come before God and have a closeness with God that even Job didn't have. 1 John 4:12 means that no man has ever seen God the Father or God in his fullness.

Jesus didn't say he was God in the literal sense because that would sound vain and boastful. He said what he needed to say to reach out to those seeking God. He told the Pharisees, before Abraham was, I am. The Angel of the Lord told Moses, "I am that I am." Jesus Is Almighty God!

Only God Is Entitled To Receive WORSHIP, and Jesus Received Worship

Only Jesus accepted the worship of others (Matthew 8:2). Only God Almighty is entitled to receive worship. The Bible teaches that God will NOT share His glory with another (Isaiah 42:8). If Jesus weren't Almighty God, then He couldn't have received the worship of so many people (Matthew 9:18;14:33;15:25;18:26;20:20;28:9). Jesus gladly received worship from people, as God Almighty is entitled to.

Jesus is Almighty God!

Notice once again that all modern corrupt Bible versions remove every mention of the word “worship” concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, changing the word “worship” to a mere “knelt.” It is deception of the worst kind. Satan tried to take away our Bibles, but failed. Then Satan tried to cause us to doubt the Bible, as he did Eve; but failed again. Now Satan is changing our Bibles, trying to deceive us again. Sadly, most people have been woefully deceived. The New International Version is dangerous, as are all the other modern perversions of the Scriptures. Only the King James Bible is trustworthy.

Jehovah's Witnesses errantly claim that Jesus is “a god,” but not God Almighty. Well, you show a Jehovah's Witness Revelation 1:8 that says Jesus is THE ALMIGHTY. . .

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8)

Jesus received WORSHIP that only God is entitled to, because He is God...

Matthew 8:2, “And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.”

If Jesus were less than almighty God, it would be idolatry to worship Him as people did, and I do. The Bible warns that God will NOT share His glory nor praise with another...

Isaiah 42:8 says, “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”

Jesus readily accepted praise because He is God. Please note that the evil men behind modern perversions of the Bible have replaced every mention of the proper word WORSHIP with the ambiguous word KNELT. You can kneel before a king without worshipping him. Do you see how the Devil has deceived people out of their Bibles, and instead given them a fake manuscript that diminishes and weakens the glory due to Jesus Christ as GOD IN THE FLESH? ...



1st Timothy 3:16 says, “...God was manifest in the flesh...”


Mark 2:7, “Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies?
who can forgive sins but God only?”

As the Bible says, only God can forgive sins, and Jesus is God!!! In Matthew 9:2-3 we read that Jesus mercifully forgave a man's sins and healed him of a horrible disability...

Matthew 9:2-3, “And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.”

Notice that the unbelieving Scribes accused the Lord of blasphemy for claiming the power to forgive men's sins. Ah, but Jesus was God in the flesh and did indeed have all the power of Heaven to forgive sin as only God can. Jesus did NOT give up His deity when He came to the earth; but rather, He humbled Himself as a suffering and obedient servant (Hebrews 5:8; Philippians 2:8).

Only Jesus forgave sin in the Bible (Matthew 9:2). Only God Almighty can forgive sin.


Jesus Is The I AM (God almighty)

Jesus is the I AM of Exodus 3:14...

Exodus 3:14, “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”

The Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus when He made the following claim...

John 8:58, “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.”

As you just read, Jesus directly claimed to be the I AM... God almighty!!! Amen and amen!!!

Jesus is God Almighty, which He claimed to be in Revelation 1:8...

Revelation 1:8, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

Jesus claimed to be God...

John 10:33 says, “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, Makest Thyself God.”

 

[Skywalker]

Both Paul and John say (a) that Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God (b) that Jesus created the material universe and (c) that Jesus is not God.

There is no identification of the messiah with God in the the bible. If you disagree, quote me the passage.
No, he did not. Instead Paul expressly states that Jesus is not God (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 15:28. Philippians 2:11) and John's Jesus expressly states he isn't God (John 5:19, John 5:30, John 6:38, John 10:25, John 17:3, John 20:17 &c)

So you are indeed claiming that Jesus is a deceiver and a liar, and the question is, what else do you say Jesus lied about or deliberately misrepresented?

The Bible says that the Messiah is the God of Israel. The Messiah as Israel’s God and King

The Messiah as Israel’s Only King and Shepherd

God’s inspired Word, the Holy Bible (specifically the Hebrew Scriptures), says that in the latter days there will be one King and one Shepherd who is called David.

"Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken." Ezekiel 34:20-24

"I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms…. My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever." Ezekiel 37:22, 24-28

Two other passages speak of the people turning to and serving David their king:

"Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them." Jeremiah 30:9

"For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days." Hosea 3:4-5

One possible meaning of the words "raise up" is that God in the latter days will physically resurrect David in order to rule over the people.

The main objection to this interpretation is that there are other passages that speak of God bringing forth his servant, the Branch, to rule on the throne:

"‘Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the LORD Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.’" Zechariah 3:8-9

"The word of the LORD came to me: ‘Take silver and gold from the exiles Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jehozadak. Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: "Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD. It is he who will build the temple of the LORD, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two." The crown will be given to Heldai, Tobijah, Jedaiah and Hen son of Zephaniah as a memorial in the temple of the LORD. Those who are far away will come and help to build the temple of the LORD, and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. This will happen if you diligently obey the LORD your God.’" Zechariah 6:9-15

As we will show a little later, the Branch is the name given to a specific descendant of David whom God will place on his father’s throne.

With this being the case, it seems more likely that David is one of the names of this specific King since he will be like his father David. The inspired writers seem to be indicating through their use of the name David that the historical David served as a type or shadow of this One who is coming to sit on David’s throne forever.

The following Psalm also refers to this King and expressly says that his rule lasts indefinitely:

"Endow the king with your justice, O God, the royal son (or the son of the king) with your righteousness. He will judge your people in righteousness, your afflicted ones with justice. The mountains will bring prosperity to the people, the hills the fruit of righteousness. He will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor. He will endure as long as the sun, as long as the moon, through all generations. He will be like rain falling on a mown field, like showers watering the earth. In his days the righteous will flourish; prosperity will abound till the moon is no more. He will rule from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. The desert tribes will bow before him and his enemies will lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores will bring tribute to him; the kings of Sheba and Seba will present him gifts. All kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him." Psalm 72:1-11

The Hebrew Bible further predicts that this royal Son would come riding on a donkey and bringing salvation:

"Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth." Zechariah 9:9-10

Another prophetic writing mentions a Son of Man who rules forever over the peoples of the world:

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." Daniel 7:13-14

When we piece all of these Scriptures together it seems pretty certain that David, the Son of Man and the Branch are all titles and names of one and the same Person, namely the Son of David who comes bringing salvation to the people.

The book of Daniel provides substantiation for this view since it refers to the Messiah as King or Ruler:

"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed." Daniel 9:25-27

And, as most readers already know, the Anointed One or Messiah is a title for the Son of David whom the Jews have been waiting for.

Amazingly, the prophet says that this Messiah Ruler will be cut off or killed even though he is supposed to rule forever! The only way for the Messiah to rule forever, despite being killed, is if God resurrects him from the dead.

The Bible also says that Yahweh is the only shepherd and king of Israel. Yahweh is the name of the triune Godhead. The Godhead is the Bible's word for the Trinity. Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2:9 - King James Version

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Bible says that the Messiah is the God of Israel. The Messiah as Israel’s God and King



The Bible also says that Yahweh is the only shepherd and king of Israel. Yahweh is the name of the triune Godhead. The Godhead is the Bible's word for the Trinity. Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2:9 - King James Version

For starters, let's talk about the idea amongst many that the Godhead is a trinity. Again, the Bible does not substantiate this. Let's look at what Jesus said -- When Jesus gave his prophecy about the end of this present world, he stated: “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32, RS, Catholic edition) Had Jesus been the equal Son part of a Godhead, he would have known what the Father knows. But Jesus did not know, for he was not equal to God. And he did not even mention the holy spirit as if it were a person. He spoke of the Father ONLY knowing the day or hour. Therefore ..not equal. And, not three. No mention of the holy spirit as if it were a person of the godhead or trinity.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why would there be doubts about Isaiah:9 itself being about Jesus, apart from Jesus not being a civil or military leader? Jesus was a religious leader and Messiah means anointed one. Jewish Christianity was just as Jewish as Rabbinic Judaism, outside of the strict anthropological, linguistic, and historical definition of religion. To some people Messianic Judaism could be a relationship, not a religion.

God the Son is the Mediator within the Trinity. Jesus didn't just die so that we could be forgiven of our sins, but also that we could come before God and have a closeness with God that even Job didn't have. 1 John 4:12 means that no man has ever seen God the Father or God in his fullness.

Jesus didn't say he was God in the literal sense because that would sound vain and boastful. He said what he needed to say to reach out to those seeking God. He told the Pharisees, before Abraham was, I am. The Angel of the Lord told Moses, "I am that I am." Jesus Is Almighty God!

No, this absolutely does not prove that Jesus is Almiighty God. Want to know why? OK, I'll tell you. Because you're making things up for one thing. Such as what you say 1 John 4:12 means. And going to (by) the scriptures themselves, Hebrews 5:8 says that "Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered."
Do you really think that God had to learn anything? No, but Jesus did, for he did not know everything that God knew. We already established that when we read Jesus' words that only the Father knows, not him. And he had to learn something that God never needs to learn--obedience. God never has to obey anyone.

 

[Skywalker]

For starters, let's talk about the idea amongst many that the Godhead is a trinity. Again, the Bible does not substantiate this. Let's look at what Jesus said -- When Jesus gave his prophecy about the end of this present world, he stated: “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32, RS, Catholic edition) Had Jesus been the equal Son part of a Godhead, he would have known what the Father knows. But Jesus did not know, for he was not equal to God. And he did not even mention the holy spirit as if it were a person. He spoke of the Father ONLY knowing the day or hour. Therefore ..not equal. And, not three. No mention of the holy spirit as if it were a person of the godhead or trinity.

Jesus didn't know what the Father knew because he was in his humanity and the Son of God is in submission to God the Father. Even in the Old Testament, Jesus and God the Father were distinct. Moses spoke to the Angel of the Lord, but he couldn't see Him in his fullness. The Angel of the Lord is distinct from the Ancient of Days. https://carm.org/about-bible-verses/who-is-the-ancient-of-days-in-daniel-7/

The “Ancient of Days” is a figure in one of Daniel’s visions that unquestionably represents God. Daniel 7 describes a succession of kingdoms appearing as various beasts. These kingdoms are finally overthrown when the Ancient of Days sits in judgment over them on His glorious throne and gives dominion and an eternal kingdom to “one like a Son of Man” whom all peoples are to serve (or worship). This vision is a messianic prophecy in which the “Ancient of Days” specifically represents God the Father and the “one like a Son of Man” is God the Son, Jesus Christ.

Daniel 7:9-10 introduces and describes the Ancient of Days as He appears in Daniel’s vision:

“I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, and the books were opened,” (Daniel 7:9-10)

A few verses later the passage goes on to explain:

“I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. and to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed,” (Daniel 7:13-14)

This scene is closely paralleled by the one described in more lengthy detail in the Book of Revelation (particularly beginning in Chapters 4-5 and progressing through the rest of the book). There, the Lord is seated gloriously on His throne and is approached by the Lamb who opens a scroll from the Lord’s hand and receives the nations as His inheritance. A beast representing a wicked human kingdom is overthrown, and the Lamb rules over all the earth and shares the very throne of God. In the Gospels, Jesus is also frequently called the “Son of Man,” sometimes with direct reference to Daniel 7 and “coming on the clouds.” This certainly seems to indicate that the New Testament understanding of this passage is that the Ancient of Days is specifically God the Father and that the Son of Man is God the Son.

God the Father is never called the Angel of the Lord or the Son of Man.

 

[blü 2]

♠

Why would there be doubts about Isaiah:9 itself being about Jesus, apart from Jesus not being a civil or military leader?

Because Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. The idea that he is indeed mentioned is a Christian retrofit, and a botched job at that.

Jesus was a religious leader

No, the religious leader who is the messiah is anointed by the Jewish priesthood ─ a qualification Jesus never got near.

God the Son is the Mediator within the Trinity.

That brings us back to the point ─ Jesus in all four gospels denies that he's God and never claims to be God, and Paul and the authors of 2 Timothy and 1John agree. The Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible, not least because it didn't exist till the 4th century, and neither Jesus nor the gospel writers had ever heard of it.

Jesus didn't just die so that we could be forgiven of our sins, but also that we could come before God and have a closeness with God that even Job didn't have. 1 John 4:12 means that no man has ever seen God the Father or God in his fullness.

No, the idea of being one with God is, as I recall, only found in John, and the idea is explained in John 17:20+, which makes it plain that being one with God is available to everyone who believes in God's servant / envoy Jesus.

Jesus didn't say he was God in the literal sense because that would sound vain and boastful. He said what he needed to say to reach out to those seeking God.

You said that before. It means that Jesus was a liar and a deceiver as to his true nature and identity throughout his ministry.

Which is why I keep asking you what else Jesus lied and deceived about.

He told the Pharisees, before Abraham was, I am.

Yes, John's Jesus (non of the others) says that. And John's Jesus, as we mentioned before, (a) pre-existed in heaven with God (b) made the material universe and (c) said more often than any other version of Jesus that he was NOT God ─ I've both given you some of the quotes and also referred you to them. So John's Jesus was saying he pre-existed Abraham because he pre-existed the universe, which he'd made.

So ─ cut to the chase: what else than his true identity do you say Jesus lied about or misrepresented?

 

[Skywalker]

♠ Because Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. The idea that he is indeed mentioned is a Christian retrofit, and a botched job at that.
No, the religious leader who is the messiah is anointed by the Jewish priesthood ─ a qualification Jesus never got near.
That brings us back to the point ─ Jesus in all four gospels denies that he's God and never claims to be God, and Paul and the authors of 2 Timothy and 1John agree. The Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible, not least because it didn't exist till the 4th century, and neither Jesus nor the gospel writers had ever heard of it.
No, the idea of being one with God is, as I recall, only found in John, and the idea is explained in John 17:20+, which makes it plain that being one with God is available to everyone who believes in God's servant / envoy Jesus.
You said that before. It means that Jesus was a liar and a deceiver as to his true nature and identity throughout his ministry.

Which is why I keep asking you what else Jesus lied and deceived about.
Yes, John's Jesus (non of the others) says that. And John's Jesus, as we mentioned before, (a) pre-existed in heaven with God (b) made the material universe and (c) said more often than any other version of Jesus that he was NOT God ─ I've both given you some of the quotes and also referred you to them. So John's Jesus was saying he pre-existed Abraham because he pre-existed the universe, which he'd made.

So ─ cut to the chase: what else than his true identity do you say Jesus lied about or misrepresented?

Jesus is mentioned in the Tanakh because the Tanakh mentions that the Messiah would be rejected by Israel and would have a messenger sent before him and he would have a new covenant exchanging the law for grace. Jesus was silent before his accusers. Pilate commented on Jesus not speaking to him. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

His messenger sent before Him.
Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
Malachi 3:1, Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 40:3, The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Rejected by Israel.
Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
Isaiah 8:14, And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Psalm 118:22-23, The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Isaiah 28:16, Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation...

• A new covenant. Exchanging the law for grace.
  Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
  Jeremiah 31:31-34, Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people...they shall know me...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
  
  Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
  Galatians 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
  
  II Corinthians 5:19, To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...
  
  Romans 7:6, 7 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law...
  
  
  
  
• Silent before His accusers.
  Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
  Isaiah 53:7, He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
  
  Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
  John 19:9-10, ...[Pilate] saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me?
  

In Malachi 3:1, God identifies himself as the Messiah because in the New Testament Jesus said that John the Baptist prepared the way before him. John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus. John the Baptist: Messenger for Messiah

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus didn't know what the Father knew because he was in his humanity and the Son of God is in submission to God the Father.

That proves it then. Jesus was not equal to his heavenly father.

 

[blü 2]

Jesus is mentioned in the Tanakh because the Tanakh mentions that the Messiah would be rejected by Israel and would have a messenger sent before him and he would have a new covenant exchanging the law for grace. Jesus was silent before his accusers. Pilate commented on Jesus not speaking to him. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua



In Malachi 3:1, God identifies himself as the Messiah because in the New Testament Jesus said that John the Baptist prepared the way before him. John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus. John the Baptist: Messenger for Messiah

So what besides his identity do you say Jesus lied about?

 

[Skywalker]

That proves it then. Jesus was not equal to his heavenly father.

Jesus chose to limit himself in his humanity when he was on the earth. Even in his limitations, it's implied that Jesus is God because Jesus knew the future. https://carm.org/about-jesus/did-jesus-know-the-future/

Jesus definately knew the future. Being God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9) because he had ordained it (Ephesians 1:11). Please consider the following verses that show that Jesus prophesied about the future.

Did Jesus know the future?
by Matt Slick | Jul 19, 2017 | Jesus, Questions

Jesus definately knew the future. Being God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9) because he had ordained it (Ephesians 1:11). Please consider the following verses that show that Jesus prophesied about the future.

1. The Abomination of Desolation
   1. Matthew 24:15, “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”
2. The appearance of false prophets
   1. Matthew 24:24, “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.”
3. His own return
   1. Matthew 24:29-31, “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
4. Peter’s Denial of Jesus
   1. Matthew 26:34, “Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you that this very night before a cock crows, you shall deny Me three times.”
5. Destruction of the Temple
   1. Mark 13:2, “And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another which will not be torn down.”
6. His own crucifixion
   1. John 8:28-29, “Jesus, therefore, said, ‘When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.'”

So, we can see that Jesus prophesied the future. Some of the prophecies are yet to be fulfilled but others were fulfilled in his time. Nevertheless, what we do with statements where, for example, Jesus did not know the time of his return? Basically, we have to understand that Jesus was cooperating with the limitations of being a man (Philippians 2: 5-8) because he was made under the law (Galatians 4:4). There is a paradox in that he was both divine and human in one person and we cannot exhaustively determine the relationship between his two natures and his knowledge. Some things we just have to take on faith. Nevertheless, Jesus prophesied the future, yet he also grew in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52).

 

[Skywalker]

♠ Because Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. The idea that he is indeed mentioned is a Christian retrofit, and a botched job at that.
No, the religious leader who is the messiah is anointed by the Jewish priesthood ─ a qualification Jesus never got near.
That brings us back to the point ─ Jesus in all four gospels denies that he's God and never claims to be God, and Paul and the authors of 2 Timothy and 1John agree. The Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible, not least because it didn't exist till the 4th century, and neither Jesus nor the gospel writers had ever heard of it.
No, the idea of being one with God is, as I recall, only found in John, and the idea is explained in John 17:20+, which makes it plain that being one with God is available to everyone who believes in God's servant / envoy Jesus.
You said that before. It means that Jesus was a liar and a deceiver as to his true nature and identity throughout his ministry.

Which is why I keep asking you what else Jesus lied and deceived about.
Yes, John's Jesus (non of the others) says that. And John's Jesus, as we mentioned before, (a) pre-existed in heaven with God (b) made the material universe and (c) said more often than any other version of Jesus that he was NOT God ─ I've both given you some of the quotes and also referred you to them. So John's Jesus was saying he pre-existed Abraham because he pre-existed the universe, which he'd made.

So ─ cut to the chase: what else than his true identity do you say Jesus lied about or misrepresented?

Based on the Tanakh, what makes Rabbinic Judaism more authorotative than the teachings of the Jewish Christians? Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

The inclusion of non-Jews led to a growing split between Jewish Christians (i.e. the Jewish followers of Jesus) and non-Jewish Christians. From the latter, Nicene Christianity eventually arose, while mainstream Judaism developed into Rabbinic Judaism. Jewish Christians drifted apart from mainstream Judaism, eventually becoming a minority strand which had mostly disappeared by the fifth century. Jewish–Christian gospels have been lost except for fragments, so there is considerable uncertainty as to the scriptures used by this group.

Jewish Christians practiced Christianity in a Jewish way. They were first and foremost Jewish and Christian. Messianic Jews often consider themselves first and foremost Jewish, because of the division between Judaism and Christianity. The early Christians practiced Judaism alongside Christianity.

Jesus didn't directly say he was God because he didn't want to claim to be God the Father. Revisiting “Where Did Jesus Say ‘I am God’” – A Response to the Muhammedan Site “Do Not Say Trinity”

The problem is that if Jesus were to come out and say “I am God” without clearly and forcefully establishing his personal distinction from the Father, and His deity in relation to that fact, people would think He was claiming to be the same person as the Father. This is because God was used primarily in reference to the Father and virtually served as His proper name. In other words, to come out and say “I am God” instead of first establishing His distinction from the Father, would lead His followers into thinking He was making himself out to be the Father in heaven.(1) This is why Jesus didn’t just walk around saying “I am God” as the Muslims demand.

Thus, Jesus needed to communicate His deity in such a way that His audience would know that He wasn’t claiming to be the Father, even though He was claiming to be God. In light of this, there was no better way for Jesus to affirm the fact that He is God then by the way the Gospels report he did, e.g. the unique Son of God and divine Son of Man who is coequal with the Father in essence, and also by applying divine titles and metaphors to Himself.

For instance, Jesus applied an Old Testament title “I Am” to himself, which is significant since he was basically making himself out to be the OT figure known as the Angel of the Lord, the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14! There were many different Jewish strands at that time that already maintained that this figure was God and yet distinct from God.(2) Thus, by using the title “I Am” Jesus was affirming both His deity as well as His distinction from the Father since in the Old Testament “I Am” was applied to both God (cf. Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:13) and the Angel of the Lord (cf. Exodus 3:14). One needs to understand intertestimental Jewish thinking in order to understand these issues properly. Without this pre-Christian Jewish backdrop in mind Muslims will be unable to understand why Jesus did what He did and said the things He said.

In summary, although Christ didn’t say “I am God” without qualification, which would have led people to think he was the Father, he did apply numerous Old Testament titles of God to Himself while going out of his way to affirm that He is not the Father.

Therefore, it is understandable why Jesus didn’t say “I am God” during His earthly ministry. That would severely complicate things and lead to a mistaken notion of the Godhead. Jesus affirmed the equivalent of “I am God” in a brilliant way while safeguarding the fact that He and the Father are personally distinct from each other.