How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Skywalker]

SMH

The Tanakh refers to God as a Savior. Only God can truly be called a Savior.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Tanakh refers to God as a Savior. Only God can truly be called a Savior.

God is my savior. But others can save me in different ways too. I don't appreciate your word games.

 

[Skywalker]

God is my savior. But others can save me in different ways too. I don't appreciate your word games.

Would you call those other people your Savior? Certain forms of glory are only to be given to God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Would you call those other people your Savior? Certain forms of glory are only to be given to God.

The word savior is a bit old fashioned in English these days. It would be odd to use it. But I'd certainly embrace them and exclaim, "You saved my life!"

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Tanakh refers to God as a Savior. Only God can truly be called a Savior.

God IS my savior. But others can save me too. And I'm not going to disrespect what they've done by saying they havn't saved me.

 

[Skywalker]

God doesn't have a monopoly on saving or delivering people. Any lifeguard can save people. The messiah will undoubtedly be an earthly savior of Israel just as David was, but not the sort that saves us from our sins. And he certainly won't be God.

The teachings of Jesus are consistent with what the Old Testament says about the Messiah. In Matthew 19:28-30, Jesus declares that he-the "Son of Man"-will rule on the glorious throne of Israel at the renewal of all things, and that his followers will rule with him. He then immediately teaches the parable of the workers and the vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16). That's where the kingdom of God is represented by a vineyard owned by an employer. The employer pays all workers equally, regardless of time worked, thereby communicating that God's grace is not based on any kind of merit such as length of service ("the first will be last and the last will be first"). Jesus is represented by the employer who owns the vineyard and dispenses grace freely. This equates him with God because, in the Old Testament, God owns the vineyard (Isaiah 5:1-7). His use of "Son of Man" is also a claim to deity.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The teachings of Jesus are consistent with what the Old Testament says about the Messiah. In Matthew 19:28-30, Jesus declares that he-the "Son of Man"-will rule on the glorious throne of Israel at the renewal of all things, and that his followers will rule with him. He then immediately teaches the parable of the workers and the vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16). That's where the kingdom of God is represented by a vineyard owned by an employer. The employer pays all workers equally, regardless of time worked, thereby communicating that God's grace is not based on any kind of merit such as length of service ("the first will be last and the last will be first"). Jesus is represented by the employer who owns the vineyard and dispenses grace freely. This equates him with God because, in the Old Testament, God owns the vineyard (Isaiah 5:1-7). His use of "Son of Man" is also a claim to deity.

This is just wrong in so many ways. To start with, the son of man in the vision is Israel, not the messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

This is just wrong in so many ways. To start with, the son of man in the vision is Israel, not the messiah.

The Son of Man is a reference to the Messiah. Son of man

The Hebrew expression "son of man" (בן–אדם, ben-'adam) appears 107 times in the Hebrew Bible, the majority (93 times) in the Book of Ezekiel.[1] It is used in three main ways: as a form of address (Ezekiel); to contrast the lowly status of humanity against the permanence and exalted dignity of God and the angels (Numbers 23:19, Psalm 8:4); and as a future eschatological figure whose coming will signal the end of history and the time of God's judgement (Daniel 7:13-14).[2]

Daniel 7 tells of a vision given to Daniel in which four "beasts," representing pagan nations, oppress the people of Israel until judged by God. Daniel 7:13–14 describes how the "Ancient of Days" (God) gives dominion over the earth to "one like a man (כבר אנש [kibar 'anash]). The passage in Daniel 7:13 occurs in Biblical Aramaic.

Rashi explains: ″13 "one like a man was coming": That is the King Messiah. -- "and… up to the Ancient of Days": Who was sitting in judgment and judging the nations. -- "came": arrived, reached. 14 "And He gave him dominion": And to that man He gave dominion over the nations, for the heathens he likens to beasts, and Israel he likens to a man because they are humble and innocent. -- "which will not be removed": [as translated,] will not be removed.″ [3]

Later in chapter 7 it is explained that "one like a man" certainly implicates a "human being" and also stands for "the saints of the Most High" (7:18, 21-22) and "the people of the saints of the Most High" (7:27).[4] The "saints" and "people of the saints" in turn probably stand for the people of Israel – the author is expressing the hope that God will take dominion over the world away from the beast-like pagan "nations" and give it to human-like Israel.[4]

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Son of Man is a reference to the Messiah. Son of man

Nope

 

[Skywalker]

Nope

The Messiah having dominion over the nations matches the Christian doctrine of the Millennium.

 

[Skywalker]

So where did the communion come from? From my research it's an occult practice.

Cursing a fig tree? What does that sound like to you?

Historical evidence shows that communion isn't an occult practice. It's in memory of what Christ did for us on the cross. Jesus Vs Mithra – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

13. His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
It took me some digging to discover the actual origin of this saying. Godwin says that the reference is from a “Persian Mithraic text,” but does not give the dating of this text, nor does he say where it was found, nor is any documentation offered. I finally found something in Vermaseren [Verm.MSG, 103] — the source of this saying is a medieval text; and the speaker is not Mithras, but Zarathustra!

Although Vermaseren suggested that this might be the formula that Justin referred to (but did not describe at all) as being part of the Mithraic “Eucharist,” there is no evidence for the saying prior to this medieval text.

Critics try to give the rite some ancestry by claiming that it derives from an Iranian Mithraic ceremony using a psychadelic plant called Haoma, but they are clearly grasping at straws and adding speculations of meaning in order to make this rite seem similar to the Eucharist.

This piece of “evidence” is far, far too late to be useful — except as possible proof that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity! (Christianity of course was in Persia far earlier than this medieval text; see Martin Palmer’s Jesus Sutras for details.)

The closest thing that Mithraism had to a “Last Supper” was the taking of staples (bread, water, wine and meat) by the Mithraic initiates, which was perhaps a celebration of the meal that Mithra had with the sun deity after slaying the bull. However, the meal of the initiates is usually seen as no more than a general fellowship meal of the sort that was practiced by groups all over the Roman world — from religious groups to funeral societies. [MS.348]

 

[dybmh]

Historical evidence shows that communion isn't an occult practice. It's in memory of what Christ did for us on the cross. Jesus Vs Mithra – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

The idea of eating flesh and drinking blood for eternal life did not come from Judaism. Cannabalism was practiced in Egypt. One of the purposes was: "a way of guiding the souls of the dead into the bodies of living descendants." ( Human cannibalism )

Compare that to John 14:19-20.

It's a recipe for eternal life. The Book of John perscribes "Eat my flesh and blood ( literally or figuratively ) for eternal life. You will live, I will be in you and you in me..."

It's an occult practice.

 

[Skywalker]

The idea of eating flesh and drinking blood for eternal life did not come from Judaism. Cannabalism was practiced in Egypt. One of the purposes was: "a way of guiding the souls of the dead into the bodies of living descendants." ( Human cannibalism )

Compare that to John 14:19-20.

It's a recipe for eternal life. The Book of John perscribes "Eat my flesh and blood ( literally or figuratively ) for eternal life. You will live, I will be in you and you in me..."

It's an occult practice.

Critics accuse New Testament writers of copying many of their claims about Jesus from earlier religions. One of their favorite examples is the mythological god named Mithras, whose story originated long before Jesus. They claim that Mithras was born of a virgin in a cave on December 25, was a great traveling teacher, had twelve disciples, sacrificed himself for world peace, was buried in a tomb, and rose again three days later. This appears to prove that Christianity stole its ideas about Jesus from the mystery religion of Mithraism. But what happens when we look deeper? Mithras was not born of a virgin in a cave. Historians agree that the myth actually says that Mithras emerged fully grown out of a rock! No virgins and no caves. Also, nowhere does the Bible say Jesus was born in a cave. Mithras was not born on December 25. The Bible doesn't say when Jesus was born. Some think it was in the spring, others in January. It wasn't until centuries later that Christians chose December 25 to celebrate his birth-probably, at least in part, to claim a pagan holiday for Christ. Mithras was not a traveling teacher with twelve disciples. He was supposedly a god, not a teacher. In one version of the story he had only one follower, while in another version he had two-but never twelve. Mithras didn't sacrifice himself for world peace. Actually he was known for killing a bull. He didn't sacrifice himself for anything. Mithras was not buried in a tomb and resurrected after three days. There are no records of beliefs about Mithras's death, so no resurrection either. As you can see, the alleged parallels between Mithras and Jesus dissolve under scrutiny. Those who say that Jesus was copied from MIthras generally don't have the languages, they don't study the original sources, they don't pay attention to the dates, and they frequently quote ideas that were popular in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries but have already been refuted.

 

[Skywalker]

There have been numerous saviors in Jewish history, including "anointed ones", which is what "messiah" literally means.

That is based off their interpretation of the Old Testament and not what the Old Testament says. The Old Testament says that god is the only Savior. Isaiah 43:11 says I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

 

[Poisonshady313]

That is based off their interpretation of the Old Testament and not what the Old Testament says. The Old Testament says that god is the only Savior. Isaiah 43:11 says I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

The Hebrew word for "messiah" and the Hebrew word for "'savior" may appear remarkably similar.

HOWEVER

They are not the same word. They are not interchangeable. They do not share the same root. They do not mean the same thing.

 

[Skywalker]

The Hebrew word for "messiah" and the Hebrew word for "'savior" may appear remarkably similar.

HOWEVER

They are not the same word. They are not interchangeable. They do not share the same root. They do not mean the same thing.

The term the Messiah is a reference to Jesus reigning over Israel in the future. The Messiah’s Reign – Israel My Glory

Descriptions of the Messiah’s Reign
God’s prophets foresaw the promised Messiah and described His coming kingdom as a period of remarkable blessings. Daniel prophesied that during the last earthly empire, “the God of heaven [will] set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed” (Dan. 2:44). Following are the major elements of the prophets’ promises.

A Restored Peace
The Messiah will begin His rule by judging and purging evil from His earth (Joel 3:1–17). He will establish His earthly throne on Mount Zion in Jerusalem and will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Ps. 2:6, 9). Implements of war will be recycled into constructive tools (Isa. 2:4). Isaiah described the Prince of Peace, of whose “government and peace there shall be no end” (9:7). The Prince of Peace is the Messiah, the son of David. “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, who shall stand for an ensign of the peoples; to him shall the nations seek, and his rest shall be glorious” (Isa. 11:10). Zechariah predicted, “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of…Jerusalem…thy King cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***…he shall speak peace unto the nations; and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea” (9:9–10).

 

[metis]

That is based off their interpretation of the Old Testament and not what the Old Testament says. The Old Testament says that god is the only Savior. Isaiah 43:11 says I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

Here, and please note the part I underlined at the end:
Messiah (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎, mašíaḥ, or המשיח‎, mashiach; Aramaic: משיחא‎; Classical Syriac: ܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ‎, Məšîḥā; Latin: Messias) literally means 'anointed one'.[17]

In Hebrew, the Messiah is often referred to as melekh mashiach (מלך המשיח‎; Tiberian: Meleḵ ha-Mašīaḥ, pronounced [ˈmeleχ hamaˈʃiaħ]), literally meaning 'the Anointed King'. The Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament renders all 39 instances of the Hebrew mašíaḥ as Khristós (Χριστός).[8] The New Testament records the Greek transliteration Messias (Μεσσίας) twice in John.[Jn. 1:41][4:25]

The literal translation of the Hebrew word mashiach (המשיח‎, messiah), is 'anointed', which refers to a ritual of consecrating someone or something by putting holy oil upon it. It is used throughout the Hebrew Bible in reference to a wide variety of individuals and objects; for example, kings, priests and prophets, the altar in the Temple, vessels, unleavened bread, and even a non-Jewish king (Cyrus the Great).[19] -- Messiah - Wikipedia



With the issue of "savior", here:
The Messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎, romanized: māšîaḥ (Mashiach)) is the savior and liberator figure in Jewish eschatology, whose role is to restore Judaism by enabling the Jewish people to observe all 613 commandments through building the Temple in Jerusalem and then gathering the Jewish people to the Land of Israel. The concept of messianism originated in Judaism.[1] -- Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

Please go to this link as you'll see further elaborations on the issue of "savior".

 

[Skywalker]

Here, and please note the part I underlined at the end:
Messiah (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎, mašíaḥ, or המשיח‎, mashiach; Aramaic: משיחא‎; Classical Syriac: ܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ‎, Məšîḥā; Latin: Messias) literally means 'anointed one'.[17]

In Hebrew, the Messiah is often referred to as melekh mashiach (מלך המשיח‎; Tiberian: Meleḵ ha-Mašīaḥ, pronounced [ˈmeleχ hamaˈʃiaħ]), literally meaning 'the Anointed King'. The Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament renders all 39 instances of the Hebrew mašíaḥ as Khristós (Χριστός).[8] The New Testament records the Greek transliteration Messias (Μεσσίας) twice in John.[Jn. 1:41][4:25]

The literal translation of the Hebrew word mashiach (המשיח‎, messiah), is 'anointed', which refers to a ritual of consecrating someone or something by putting holy oil upon it. It is used throughout the Hebrew Bible in reference to a wide variety of individuals and objects; for example, kings, priests and prophets, the altar in the Temple, vessels, unleavened bread, and even a non-Jewish king (Cyrus the Great).[19] -- Messiah - Wikipedia



With the issue of "savior", here:
The Messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎, romanized: māšîaḥ (Mashiach)) is the savior and liberator figure in Jewish eschatology, whose role is to restore Judaism by enabling the Jewish people to observe all 613 commandments through building the Temple in Jerusalem and then gathering the Jewish people to the Land of Israel. The concept of messianism originated in Judaism.[1] -- Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

Please go to this link as you'll see further elaborations on the issue of "savior".

Jesus will gather the Jewish people to the land of Israel during his second coming that is still yet to come. Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

The Old Testament does prophesy the second coming of Christ, also referred to as the second advent of the Messiah. Some Old Testament prophecies concern the first advent, when Christ was born as a human being. Others concern the second advent, which is the ultimate triumph of this Messiah. It’s important to remember that prophecy does not describe the future in the same detail as history describes the past. So, while the prophecies of the Old Testament certainly describe both the first and second advents, most early interpretations of these prophecies melded them into a single event. Particularly during the years leading up to Jesus’ birth, it was assumed Messiah would be a political/military figure with an immediate worldly kingdom (Luke 19:11). In the light of Jesus’ ministry, it is possible to understand the true purpose of Christ and the real nature of His kingdom.

A careful look at Old Testament prophecies shows an underlying assumption of two advents. Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14 predict the first advent. Separately, Isaiah 53:8–9 predicts a suffering and dying Messiah, who will be given life and greatness according to Isaiah 53:11–12. Daniel 9:26 describes the Messiah being killed after His appearance. At the same time, prophets such as Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) say this same “pierced” Messiah will be seen again by His enemies. So the clues are there.

Many Old Testament prophecies foretell the ultimate triumph of Christ, which will occur at the second advent. These include statements from the books of Zechariah (Zechariah 9:14–15; 12:10–14; 13:1; 9:14–15); Amos (Amos 9:11–15); Jeremiah (Jeremiah 30:18; 32:44; 33:11, 26); and Joel (Joel 3:1); which describe the Messiah coming in triumph to lead Israel into salvation. Note that these are in the context of passages such as Deuteronomy 30:3–5 and so are predictions of the time of Messiah’s final victory.

 

[metis]

Jesus will gather the Jewish people to the land of Israel during his second coming that is still yet to come. Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

You didn't deal with what I wrote, so why should I even consider dealing with the above? But I will, thus only using one word: interpretations.

 

[Skywalker]

You didn't deal with what I wrote, so why should I even consider dealing with the above?

Sorry. It was a typo. I accidentally deleted Israel will be regathered when Jesus returns. I was talking about the second coming is when Jesus will gather the Jewish people to the land of Israel.