How can any true Christian not accept a gay Bishop?

[sojourner]

not my fault that gay people are being evil and are possessed by Satan because they is evil. why u ppl being so mean 2 me?

No, but it's your fault that you're so ignorant about why the Bible says what it does. and it's your fault that you're less compassionate than you should be.

 

[sojourner]

God cannot forgive someone who is not seeking forgiveness.

God can't? doesn't that constitute both conditionality and limitation?

Of course God has already forgiven us.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg,
Here is a copy from a post I made in another thread that should be of interest to you:

basically it seems that what you are saying is that times have changed and therefore we should also change with them. You probably know that in leviticus, peodophilia & incest were also condemned practices...we know that today they are both very prevalent behind closed doors. Would you say that we should also accept peodophilia & incest because its so widely practiced by some people? Im sure you wouldnt. Yet peodophilia is what you are talking about in your post. In greek times young boys were used for sex by old men...you called it homosexuality but its not, its peodophilia.

 

[Pegg]

Why does Leviticus say it's wrong? do the cultural norms and particulars of ancient Israel translate to post-modern America? No.

if you want to know why homosexual activity is wrong you need only look at Gods purpose and what constitutes sin.

Sin is basically anything which is out of harmony with Gods universal laws...which i'll call the 'natural order of things'. When we do ANYTHING out of harmony with the natural order, we are sinning.

so if a father wants to have sex with his daughter, that is out of harmony with the natural order of things. If a human decides to have sex with an animal, this is out of harmony with the natural order of things...if someone wants to have sex with themselves it is also out of harmony with the natural order of things.

God gave everything a pupose and if it is used for its proper purpose then it is in harmony with God and with his universal laws...but if its used outside of its purpose, then it becomes sin which actually means to 'miss the mark' of its intended goal.


When a man has sex with a man, this is out of harmony with the purpose of sexual relations. Sexual relations are for the purpose of producing offspring and its clear that when Adam and Eve began to look at each other in a sexualised way, they saw another purpose for their sex organs 'other then' what God had purposed for them and this brought them out of harmony with God. So it is with any other condemned form of sexual activity...they are both out of harmony with universal laws.

 

[McBell]

When a man has sex with a man, this is out of harmony with the purpose of sexual relations. Sexual relations are for the purpose of producing offspring...

Are you claiming that the purpose of sex is procreation?
That if you have sex for pleasure you are sinning?

 

[Pegg]

Are you claiming that the purpose of sex is procreation?
That if you have sex for pleasure you are sinning?

yes. The purpose of sex is primarily for procreation. The account about Adam and Eve can provide no other explanation for why they began to feel shame about their sexual organs.

They lived for a length of time without having sexual relations in the garden, but after they had rebelled and ate from the tree, they began to view each other differently to the point where their consciences bothered them to the point of actually hiding their genitals.

Now, im not saying that a husband and wife cannot have sex for pleasure...that is going to happen naturally because God graciously made sex pleasurable.... but we have to realise that its main purpose is to produce children.

 

[McBell]

yes. The purpose of sex is primarily for procreation. The account about Adam and Eve can provide no other explanation for why they began to feel shame about their sexual organs.

They lived for a length of time without having sexual relations in the garden, but after they had rebelled and ate from the tree, they began to view each other differently to the point where their consciences bothered them to the point of actually hiding their genitals.

Now, im not saying that a husband and wife cannot have sex for pleasure...that is going to happen naturally because God graciously made sex pleasurable.... but we have to realise that its main purpose is to produce children.

And it is you claim that homosexual cannot produce children so because of that they are sinning?

 

[LuisDantas]

Now, im not saying that a husband and wife cannot have sex for pleasure...that is going to happen naturally because God graciously made sex pleasurable.... but we have to realise that its main purpose is to produce children.

It is certainly not the one most often pursued.

Anyway, I'm fairly certain that homosexuals do have pleasure with sex. For that matter, so do non-married heterosexuals.

If it was God that made sex pleasurable, then what does that say about his approval of sex between non-married / non-hetero couples?

Perhaps that he does not mind? Or that he expects people to take responsibility for their own happiness?

 

[Pegg]

And it is you claim that homosexual cannot produce children so because of that they are sinning?

No, the point i was making was that when we do ANYTHING which is out of harmony with Gods universal laws, it is sin. whether its homosexuality or incest or beastiality or hetrosexual activity outside the bounds of marriage...its all sin

 

[LuisDantas]

No, the point i was making was that when we do ANYTHING which is out of harmony with Gods universal laws, it is sin. whether its homosexuality or incest or beastiality or hetrosexual activity outside the bounds of marriage...its all sin

By definition, that would be correct, even if it turns out that neither God nor sin do exist. You still don't have much in the way of evidence for what God actually desires, however.

 

[Pegg]

By definition, that would be correct, even if it turns out that neither God nor sin do exist. You still don't have much in the way of evidence for what God actually desires, however.

well Genesis gives us evidence of his purpose for man and woman
Gen 1:28 "Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it"

to me that says to procreate...that was their purpose.

 

[ChristineES]

well Genesis gives us evidence of his purpose for man and woman
Gen 1:28 "Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it"

to me that says to procreate...that was their purpose.

A Catholic (on a different site) once posted that very same verse to explain why people couldn't use condoms or birth control.

 

[Pegg]

A Catholic (on a different site) once posted that very same verse to explain why people couldn't use condoms or birth control.

yeah i can see how they might

but thats what happens when people go to the extreme...they dont take other factors into consideration such as the fact that our world is not the perfect garden of eden in which to bring up children... will we be able to afford to feed them, will we have the means to educate them

these are personal decisions that only the parents can make and its certainly not up to the church to dictate such matters for the reason that the church are not the ones given the responsibility to bring children into the world...although they like to think they are in control, they are actually not.

We must live by our own conscience before God...not by the conscience of others...and if we need contraception then we are free to use it...the church tries to take away our right to choose, but God upholds our right to choose.

 

[LuisDantas]

well Genesis gives us evidence of his purpose for man and woman
Gen 1:28 "Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it"

to me that says to procreate...that was their purpose.

With all due respect, that is very weak evidence when confronted with actual human behavior and other facts.

Besides, it is not even clear what message, if any, that verse was meant to pass.

 

[Pegg]

With all due respect, that is very weak evidence when confronted with actual human behavior and other facts.

Besides, it is not even clear what message, if any, that verse was meant to pass.

fair enough, that is just one verse so here are a few more

Isaiah 45:12 & 18 tells us the earth has a purpose...it is to be inhabited
“I myself have made the earth and have created even man upon it. 18 For this is what Jehovah has said... the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited"

In Genesis 9:1 God tells Noah and his family to come out of the ark and fill the earth "And God went on to bless Noah and his sons and to say to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth"

Psalm 37:29 tells us that mankind are to live forever on earth
"The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it"

In Revelation 21:3-4 we are told that death will not be a part of the human condition
"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more"

Isaiah 25:8 expresses the same sentiment that death will be removed
"He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces"

in Hosea 13;14 we are told that those who are in sheol (the grave) will be brought back to life
“From the hand of She′ol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them."
Jesus confirmed that the dead will be brought back to life at John 5:28-29
"...the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment" There will be no distinction between a good or bad person at the time of the resurrection. Both good and bad people will be given a second chance at life...the only reason he would do this is because life is what he purposed for us...its still his purpose for us and it always will be.

 

[LuisDantas]

Even taking your interpretations of those verses as the correct ones, that still doesn't even hint at God's disapproval of homosexual sex.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

yeah i can see how they might

but thats what happens when people go to the extreme...they dont take other factors into consideration such as the fact that our world is not the perfect garden of eden in which to bring up children...

There were no children in the Garden of Eden why ? No sex! This was a universal teaching of the proto Orthodox church. All early christian writers interpted the fall as Adam and Eve having sex. The Roman Catholic church has moderated the early stance of the Church and made it more liberal. No sex for fun. was a universal teaching among Church Fathers. It is easy to see why.


Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." Matthew 19:11-12

 

[Autodidact]

Er, I'm pretty sure that Ruth and Naomi wouldn't have been homosexual, considering that they would have been put to death if they were found out,

Why do you say that?

not to mention that Ruth later remarried.

I know many women who lived as lesbians for years, and either married later, or had been previously married.

And that Naomi was like Ruth's mother or something (I think... I forget what she was, but she was family), and incest was also given the death penalty in ancient Israel.

Ex-mother-in-law. I don't believe there is any prohibition against sex between an ex-mother-in-law and daughter-in-law.

 

[Pegg]

There were no children in the Garden of Eden why ? No sex! This was a universal teaching of the proto Orthodox church. All early christian writers interpted the fall as Adam and Eve having sex. The Roman Catholic church has moderated the early stance of the Church and made it more liberal. No sex for fun. was a universal teaching among Church Fathers. It is easy to see why.


Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." Matthew 19:11-12

but if you read the genesis account, Adam and Eve did not have sex until AFTER they had sinned and left the garden.

So its quite a misconception that sex led them to sin. It simply wasnt the case. Disobeying the law of God is what made them sinners... sex unfortunately became distorted because mankind were now independent and out of harmony with nature.

Its more likely that those early church 'father's' had ulterior motives for making such a claim and my guess is that they were influenced by the greek mythologies and the extremist ideas of the day. Its also likely that they used such a teaching to promote celibacy and because if people believed that sex is what leads a person to sin, then a celibate preacher is above sin and therefore more authoritive then anyone else...above reproach... does the term 'infalible' remind you of anyone?

 

[Pegg]

Even taking your interpretations of those verses as the correct ones, that still doesn't even hint at God's disapproval of homosexual sex.

im sorry, i didnt realise that is what you were asking...the topic is going a bit offtopic

Homosexual activity was condemned in the mosaic law.
Leviticus 18:22 “And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.
24 “‘Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, because by all these things the nations whom I am sending out from before YOU have made themselves unclean.

The christian church maintained the laws agains homosexual immorality...those who became christians had to change their conduct.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 "What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men...will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ"