How can any true Christian not accept a gay Bishop?

[LuisDantas]

I don't particularly doubt that the Christians of Paul's time rejected homosexuality as "unnatural" (which it isn't).

Harder to understand is why current Christians still do.

After all, they rejected slavery despite a remarkable lack of encouragement from the Bible and traditional doctrine.

 

[Ordeet]

all i can say is that as Jesus was a follower of the Mosaic law...

Yet Jesus was born into the Jewish culture and followed the Jewish religion. And the Mosaic law is particular unto the Jewish people and their faith. It did not apply to people who weren't Jewish, as the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. of Jesus' time clearly tolerated homosexuality. The Torah is for Jews and Gentiles aren't included under that Law.

Why We Are Not Under The Old Testament Laws

"And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this Law, which l set before you this day?"

 

[McBell]

No, the point i was making was that when we do ANYTHING which is out of harmony with Gods universal laws, it is sin. whether its homosexuality or incest or beastiality or hetrosexual activity outside the bounds of marriage...its all sin

And where does one find this alleged "Universal Law Book"?

 

[McBell]

but if you read the genesis account, Adam and Eve did not have sex until AFTER they had sinned and left the garden.

Source please.

Its more likely that those early church 'father's' had ulterior motives for making such a claim and my guess is that they were influenced by the greek mythologies and the extremist ideas of the day. Its also likely that they used such a teaching to promote celibacy and because if people believed that sex is what leads a person to sin, then a celibate preacher is above sin and therefore more authoritive then anyone else...above reproach... does the term 'infalible' remind you of anyone?

Actually the celibacy thing came about because the church could not afford to pay for all the children the priests were having.
You know, that whole no birth control thing.

 

[Pegg]

Yet Jesus was born into the Jewish culture and followed the Jewish religion. And the Mosaic law is particular unto the Jewish people and their faith. It did not apply to people who weren't Jewish, as the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. of Jesus' time clearly tolerated homosexuality. The Torah is for Jews and Gentiles aren't included under that Law.

Why We Are Not Under The Old Testament Laws

im sure you've heard of proselytes...these were people from different nations who became a part of the Jewish faith....anyone could become a proselyte and they were all required to observe the same mosaic laws as the jews.

but please dont get me wrong...i am not saying that because Jesus followed the mosaic law, so must we christians. No, im simply stating that Gods law and standards was always against immoral sexual activity and christianity held to the same high standards.

 

[Pegg]

And where does one find this alleged "Universal Law Book"?

it is with God and if we were still under his headship, it would be apart of our natural instinctive understanding....just as we instinctively know it is wrong to murder for instance.

Although for now we have been given some understanding of his laws though the bible...they constitute his standards of perfection...the very standards that would have been a part of our conscience had we remained under his headship.

 

[McBell]

, im simply stating that Gods law and standards was always against immoral sexual activity and christianity held to the same high standards.

Some morallity.
To prevent two consensual adults from loving one another...
So much for being a god of love.

 

[McBell]

it is with God and if we were still under his headship, it would be apart of our natural instinctive understanding....just as we instinctively know it is wrong to murder for instance.

Although for now we have been given some understanding of his laws though the bible...they constitute his standards of perfection...the very standards that would have been a part of our conscience had we remained under his headship.

Wait, so the best we got for this alleged universal law is a book that has been translated numerous times by faulty agenda filled humans and it is not even complete to boot?

 

[Pegg]

Source please.


Actually the celibacy thing came about because the church could not afford to pay for all the children the priests were having.
You know, that whole no birth control thing.

Genesis 3:23 ends with "With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden of E′den to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E′den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life."

And chpt 4 begins with
"Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain"

There is no mention of any sexual activity before they were removed from the garden. The reason why they were removed is because they ate from the fruit of the tree as follows:

Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

6 Consequently the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something to be longed for to the eyes, yes, the tree was desirable to look upon. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them became opened and they began to realize that they were naked. Hence they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves."

So the sin was a result of eating from the tree....not having sex.

 

[McBell]

Genesis 3:23 ends with "With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden of E′den to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E′den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life."

And chpt 4 begins with
"Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain"

There is no mention of any sexual activity before they were removed from the garden.

There is no mention that they did not have sex before the fall.
Seems to me you are merely making the assumption that best fits into your other assumptions.

So the sin was a result of eating from the tree....not having sex.

Actually, the sin was disobeying a direct order from God.
Though I have no idea why you are going on and on about it.

I know I never brought it up.

 

[Hyperborean]

Yet Jesus was born into the Jewish culture and followed the Jewish religion. And the Mosaic law is particular unto the Jewish people and their faith. It did not apply to people who weren't Jewish, as the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. of Jesus' time clearly tolerated homosexuality. The Torah is for Jews and Gentiles aren't included under that Law.

Why We Are Not Under The Old Testament Laws

In that case, do you think that the Jews, who do follow the Mosaic law, should accept gay clergy?

 

[Pegg]

There is no mention that they did not have sex before the fall.
Seems to me you are merely making the assumption that best fits into your other assumptions.

they are not assumptions if there is scriptural support for the idea.

But let me ask you to consider this question, if they were having sex while they were in the garden, why wasn't she pregnant earlier?

 

[McBell]

they are not assumptions if there is scriptural support for the idea.

that is just it though, there is nothing in your scriptures about it one way or the other.
So one just as easily say that they were screwing like rabbits from sun up to sun down and only stopped in order to eat, poop, and sleep.

There is exactly as much "scriptural evidence" for the above as there is for your assumption...Absolutely NOTHING.

But let me ask you to consider this question, if they were having sex while they were in the garden, why wasn't she pregnant earlier?

Who says she wasn't?
Again you make assumptions based upon lack of scriptural mention.
For all you know she had ten thousand children before the fall.
Which would tend to explain who Cain and Able found to marry.

But then assuming you are correct that she did not get pregnant before the fall, there are several possible reasons.
It was not a part of Gods plan therefore he suspended her ability to conceive.

I will go with that.
And you have nothing to prove it wrong other than your assumptions on matters with which the scriptures are silent.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

but if you read the genesis account, Adam and Eve did not have sex until AFTER they had sinned and left the garden.

So its quite a misconception that sex led them to sin. It simply wasnt the case. Disobeying the law of God is what made them sinners... sex unfortunately became distorted because mankind were now independent and out of harmony with nature.

Its more likely that those early church 'father's' had ulterior motives for making such a claim and my guess is that they were influenced by the greek mythologies and the extremist ideas of the day. Its also likely that they used such a teaching to promote celibacy and because if people believed that sex is what leads a person to sin, then a celibate preacher is above sin and therefore more authoritive then anyone else...above reproach... does the term 'infalible' remind you of anyone?

I am sorry to tell you this Genesis no where states they started having sex after the fall. I fact they became ashamed of there bodies right after they rejected God. This shows they have become aware of sexuality.

You have never responded to my quote were Jesus said we should be eunuchs for God. Also read Paul

Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry
1 Corinthians 7:1 (niv)

Paul made it very clear that only the weak Christians should get married in the rest of this chapter. This there was no ulterior motives by the early christians. It is right in the bible.

I can bring out many more quotes if you like.

 

[Autodidact]

In that case, do you think that the Jews, who do follow the Mosaic law, should accept gay clergy?

Judaism is complicated. There is no single authority, and no hierarchy of clergy. A rabbi is a scholar/teacher who has studied enough to knowledgeable in Torah. (I believe this is similar to Islam?) If you think a given rabbi is knowledgeable and wise, then you can accept him or her as your rabbi. If not, don't. It's up to each individual Jew or group of Jews (congregation.) If you don't think a gay man can be a rabbi, go to a different rabbi. Of course, there is no prohibition against lesbianism, so if you accept female rabbis, then you would have no problem with a lesbian.

Also, there are many laws from the Tanakh that don't apply today, such as animal sacrifice, because we are in different circumstances now.

There are serious translation issues, and a strong argument that even gay male sex is not prohibited in the Tanakh.

Finally, reform Jews don't pay much attention to the purity code, focusing instead on the commandments to do justice and practice charity, so they in general would not have a problem with it.

 

[sojourner]

basically it seems that what you are saying is that times have changed and therefore we should also change with them. You probably know that in leviticus, peodophilia & incest were also condemned practices...we know that today they are both very prevalent behind closed doors. Would you say that we should also accept peodophilia & incest because its so widely practiced by some people? Im sure you wouldnt. Yet peodophilia is what you are talking about in your post. In greek times young boys were used for sex by old men...you called it homosexuality but its not, its peodophilia.

No, I call it "pedophilia." They called it what they called it. you translate that to "all homosexual acts."

Had you actually read the post thoroughly, you would find that the reasons are not "because times have changed." It's because their understanding of homosexuality (much like their understanding of how the universe works) was no so developed as ours. Paul also advocated for the keeping of slaves and the domination of women. Paul was wrong about those things, too.

 

[sojourner]

if you want to know why homosexual activity is wrong you need only look at Gods purpose and what constitutes sin.

Sin is basically anything which is out of harmony with Gods universal laws...which i'll call the 'natural order of things'. When we do ANYTHING out of harmony with the natural order, we are sinning.

so if a father wants to have sex with his daughter, that is out of harmony with the natural order of things. If a human decides to have sex with an animal, this is out of harmony with the natural order of things...if someone wants to have sex with themselves it is also out of harmony with the natural order of things.

God gave everything a pupose and if it is used for its proper purpose then it is in harmony with God and with his universal laws...but if its used outside of its purpose, then it becomes sin which actually means to 'miss the mark' of its intended goal.


When a man has sex with a man, this is out of harmony with the purpose of sexual relations. Sexual relations are for the purpose of producing offspring and its clear that when Adam and Eve began to look at each other in a sexualised way, they saw another purpose for their sex organs 'other then' what God had purposed for them and this brought them out of harmony with God. So it is with any other condemned form of sexual activity...they are both out of harmony with universal laws.

Shall we also condemn sexual relations between elderly married folks, or between young couples who are barren?

The earth is overpopulated and oversubdued. Why would God's injunction to "fill the earth and subdue it" apply today? No. You'll have to do much, much better than the "natural law" argument -- especially since homosexuality is also prevalent among other species.

 

[sojourner]

We must live by our own conscience before God...not by the conscience of others

Homosexuals do that very thing...

 

[Pegg]

Who says she wasn't?
Again you make assumptions based upon lack of scriptural mention.
For all you know she had ten thousand children before the fall.
Which would tend to explain who Cain and Able found to marry.

But then assuming you are correct that she did not get pregnant before the fall, there are several possible reasons.
It was not a part of Gods plan therefore he suspended her ability to conceive.

I will go with that.
And you have nothing to prove it wrong other than your assumptions on matters with which the scriptures are silent.

well according to the account, Cain was her first child and he came along AFTER they had been removed from the garden, not before.

And the account also shows that it was always Gods plan for them to reproduce offspring...that mandate was given to them at their creation.

Able never married, but Cain did according to the account and the account also tells us that A&E had a number of children after leaving the garden.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

[/I]So the sin was a result of eating from the tree....not having sex. [/SIZE]

The problem is that I can't find One early christian writer that did not see eating of the fruit as not symbolic for having sex. The only folks who did not see it this way was the Gnostics as far as I can tell. Your interpretation of this is modern and Historically wrong.