How can someone be a male and be a feminist at the same time?

[Willamena]

Feminism is nothing more than seeking to remove gender inequality insofar as is biologically possible.

Biologically?

Gender is a social stamp.

 

[oldbadger]

Yeah, and now that you mention it, I would actually describe myself as an Egalitarian. I don't have a problem with feminism, but it just doesn't appeal to me.

Tell you what.......... I have been so impressed with what egalitarians have had to say to me, and how they have said it, that I don't mind advancing to that tag as well. It is a step forward and beyond the tag 'feminism' simly because it addresses issues far beyond feminism, yet including every issue to do with feminism.

And so, as a new egalitarian, I would feel comfortable with any humanist, civil rights, feminist, etc etc groups.

And so, your thread, for me, is a resting place in my individual quest for some answers. Cool! Thanks! :yes: ,

 

[oldbadger]

Then we're all on the same page... and all egalitarians can accurately be regarded as feminists, as well, in a broad sense.

So, I'm a male, and a feminist.

I'm cool with that!
And I feel that I could discuss most any equality related issue with you.
We might not always find total agreement, but I like the way that you write.

 

[dust1n]

This was the opinion of a group of feminists as reported by a feminist. It's different to yours, so obviously you will call it strange. She called your version 'inappropriate'.

Please don'r wave a music-band in the air as 'the norm' for Britain. We are all as individual as our fingerprints.

Hold on, let me go back even farther in British history.

"[John Stuart] Mill saw women's issues as important and began to write in favour of greater rights for women. With this, Mill can be considered among the earliest feminists. In his article, "The Subjection of Women" (1861, published 1869), Mill attempts to prove that the legal subjugation of women is wrong and that it should give way to perfect equality.[23] He talks about the role of women in marriage and how he felt it needed to be changed. There, Mill comments on three major facets of women's lives that he felt are hindering them: society and gender construction, education, and marriage. Mill is also famous for being one of the earliest and strongest supporters of ever greater rights for women. His book The Subjection of Women is one of the earliest written on this subject by a male author. He felt that the oppression of women was one of the few remaining relics from ancient times, a set of prejudices that severely impeded the progress of humanity.[24]


Mill's ideas were opposed by Ernest Belfort Bax in his treatise, The Legal Subjection of Men.[25]"

John Stuart Mill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Omg, how entirely 'inappropriate.'

 

[oldbadger]

Egalitarian is libertarianism which is on the FAR right of the spectrum, past conservatives, but has an entirely different meaning than a conservative republican.
However, egalitarian deals with a wider variety of issues that neither repubs or dems in America take part in. So if you are going to refer to yourself as an Egalitarian you will have to refer to yourself as an independent. Meaning you don't take sides.

Excuse me hacking up your post.....

I did not know that egalitarian has any political 'leaning', as you have shown that it does in the States. Obviously it did when the French Revolution used it, but the folks I have listened to used it as a 'humanist' type of word. Like say, the word 'ecologist' has no political significance.

Very interesting....

 

[oldbadger]

Hold on, let me go back even farther in British history.

"[John Stuart] Mill saw women's issues as important and began to write in favour of greater rights for women. With this, Mill can be considered among the earliest feminists. In his article, "

How does this impact on a feminist's description of her group in Kent, this week?

Interesting about John Stuart Mill. Cool. Just out of interest, did he call himself a feminist?

 

[dust1n]

... snip ... snip ... drop scissors ...

3/10 for trying. I know I score high, but I don't believe anyone deserve a 0, 1 or 2.

If there is anything else you would like for me respond to let me know.

"typical antics of someone that chooses not to debate the subject."

 

[dust1n]

How does this impact on a feminist's description of her group in Kent, this week?

Much like the band did when I posted it. If your argument is men can't be feminists because this British lady said it was inappropriate, the argument doesn't follow. If your argument is men shouldn't call themselves feminists, what you Kent feminist group, the argument doesn't follow. If you think I'm trying to argue that you should call your feminist rather than egalitarian, I'm not, and could not care less what you call yourself.

Is the point you trying to get at one of those three?

Interesting about John Stuart Mill. Cool. Just out of interest, did he call himself a feminist?

Feminism wasn't a name of a movement when John Stuart Mill wrote.

"The term "feminism" was coined in French in 1837 as féminisme. It appeared in the English language in 1851 and at this point in English simply refered to the "state of being feminine", only adopting the French meaning around 1895. The word was coined by the French early socialist-masonic philosopher Charles Fourier, who also supported homosexualism,[2] was critical of the institution of marriage, promoted "free love" and advocated opening male jobs to women. Along with the Marquis de Sade, he is considered a forefather of the sexual revolution. "

Feminism - Metapedia

 

[oldbadger]

Much like the band did when I posted it. If your argument is men can't be feminists because this British lady said it was inappropriate, the argument doesn't follow. If your argument is men shouldn't call themselves feminists, what you Kent feminist group, the argument doesn't follow. If you think I'm trying to argue that you should call your feminist rather than egalitarian, I'm not, and could not care less what you call yourself.

Is the point you trying to get at one of those three?

I was not writing to you, was I? I was writing to Riverwolfe. My report of what a woman said to me over tea is simply a stand-alone fact of her group's feelings and opinions. But what she said helped to influence me and my decisions. I don't mean to be rude, but I am searching for me, not for you.

You, producing a music-band from 40 years ago is 'behind the times'. Things move forward. Then producing a writer from before the word 'feminist' was produced. Time to wake up to 'here' and 'now'.

Feminism wasn't a name of a movement when John Stuart Mill wrote. It appeared in the English language in 1851 and at this point in English simply refered to the "state of being feminine", apedia[/URL]

So John Mill didn't call himself feminist. And the word, once created, meant being feminine. Kind of different, then? So back then, only females could be feminist? You are not helping yourself, are you? Not your best day, today, is it?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I was not writing to you, was I? I was writing to Riverwolfe. My report of what a woman said to me over tea is simply a stand-alone fact of her group's feelings and opinions. But what she said helped to influence me and my decisions. I don't mean to be rude, but I am searching for me, not for you.

You, producing a music-band from 40 years ago is 'behind the times'. Things move forward. Then producing a writer from before the word 'feminist' was produced. Time to wake up to 'here' and 'now'.



So John Mill didn't call himself feminist. And the word, once created, meant being feminine. Kind of different, then? So back then, only females could be feminist? You are not helping yourself, are you? Not your best day, today, is it?

Oldbadger, which feminist works have you read, out of curiosity?

 

[oldbadger]

Oldbadger, which feminist works have you read, out of curiosity?

Hi......!

The Sexual Discrimination Act 75' is the biggest document. Masses of Employment Law.

But no titled works by feminists such as Germaine Greer (?)...... is that the kind of reading you mean?

 

[Willamena]

Okay, this is the thing. I will try to explain this the best I can before I go to sleep.

Feminism is usually regarded as being left wing, democratic liberals. You can fill in the rest of the blanks.

Egalitarian is libertarianism which is on the FAR right of the spectrum, past conservatives, but has an entirely different meaning than a conservative republican.

Confusing? Yes, and I can see why.

I can too. Esepcially as a Canadian feminist (we don't have Democrats or anything right of conservative).

However, egalitarian deals with a wider variety of issues that neither repubs or dems in America take part in. So if you are going to refer to yourself as an Egalitarian you will have to refer to yourself as an independent. Meaning you don't take sides.

It does indeed deal with a wider variety of issues associated with the equality of quality, but in regards to women's issues, its appearance is feminism.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hi......!

The Sexual Discrimination Act 75' is the biggest document. Masses of Employment Law.

But no titled works by feminists such as Germaine Greer (?)...... is that the kind of reading you mean?

That's the reading I meant, yes. Actual feminist writings.

I recommend reading a couple, as it might help you understand the positions better. I started from the advice of my mother articles written by Gloria Steinem back in the '70s, and then in college I read two books in delving deeper into feminist writing: The Feminine Mystique by Betty Frieden and The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir.

From these landmark writings that helped define Second Wave Feminism, I looked back further into First Wave writings, and currently have been reading Third Wave writers.

You don't have to start reading chronologically, though it helps to stand the writer's works with society's culture at the time and see how feminism has evolved as cultures have evolved.

The reason why I recommend reading feminist writings is because one is able to gain a perspective from female writers, thinkers, and (today) bloggers that can identify life through the female lens, which when compared and contrasted with various political, religious, and philosophical writings and doctrines can see how it speaks a message that is contrary to much of the latter's stances of how a woman "should" live, act, speak, dress, etc.

Let me put it this way....there are leaders all around the world who speak publicly on how a woman is defined. The vast majority of these leaders are male. Reading feminist literature helps to tear down all those arbitrary definitions by seeing that women are human beings just like men. And it helps to see just how silly these definitions are spoken by highly influential leaders around the world.

It's a challenge to the myth of gender stereotypes and surrounding religious, legal, and familial mandates that result from power struggles from these stereotypes.

 

[oldbadger]

That's the reading I meant, yes. Actual feminist writings.

Cool.... Excuse me hacking your post......

I recommend reading ........... Gloria Steinem ........The Feminine Mystique[/i] by Betty Frieden and The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir.....................currently have been reading Third Wave writers.

You don't have to start reading chronologically, though it helps to stand the writer's works with society's culture at the time and see how feminism has evolved as cultures have evolved.

The reason why I recommend reading feminist writings is because ................ when compared and contrasted with various political, religious, and philosophical writings ............ is contrary to much of the latter's stances........

Let me put it this way....there are leaders all around the world who speak publicly on how a woman is defined. The vast majority of these leaders are male. Reading feminist literature helps to tear down all those arbitrary definitions by seeing that women are human beings just like men. And it helps to see just how silly these definitions are spoken by highly influential leaders around the world.

It's a challenge to the myth of gender stereotypes and surrounding religious, legal, and familial mandates that result from power struggles from these stereotypes.

Thanks for all this. I've copied it whole and filed it for retrieval.
OK...... I can't...... well, not at this time.
I've exposed myself eek to masses of reading in a historical project, and there are circa 24 authors to read if I am to be able to gain a sound foundation in the subject. I've just received book 3 to read, and I need to focus on that before anything.

You know how it is...... I do like to read a 'for fun' book tween-times, and I am tied up for over a year. So there's no point in me saying 'oh yes', is there?

But....... as soon as I read your post, it seemed clear to me that political, religious and (some) philosophical writings would be 'bananas' as compared with how women might see fair, reasonable, decent, happy, fulfilled life.
The thing is, I know that you are right (in that I should read and learn from feminists), but, of course, when living amongst women, the sort of person who is interested in women and their feelings, frustrations and lives does pick up quite a lot.

The most important woman in my life, for example, is my wife, and every evening without fail, for over twenty years (August 7th 1992) we have bathed together with wine or tea etc and talked....... and listened...... for a long time, until the water gets cold and we have to run more. A totally platonic condition......switched off to attraction but switched on to togetherness. And still, even now, I learn things about her that I never knew before, or heard about so long ago that I have forgotten and needed to hear again. I might not have learned a lot about 'women', but I know a bit about my wife. And she does tell me, has told me over the years, about how other women might have felt or what they might have needed in various situations. Damn, I can't write anymore just now.....

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Cool.... Excuse me hacking your post......



Thanks for all this. I've copied it whole and filed it for retrieval.
OK...... I can't...... well, not at this time.
I've exposed myself eek to masses of reading in a historical project, and there are circa 24 authors to read if I am to be able to gain a sound foundation in the subject. I've just received book 3 to read, and I need to focus on that before anything.

You know how it is...... I do like to read a 'for fun' book tween-times, and I am tied up for over a year. So there's no point in me saying 'oh yes', is there?

But....... as soon as I read your post, it seemed clear to me that political, religious and (some) philosophical writings would be 'bananas' as compared with how women might see fair, reasonable, decent, happy, fulfilled life.
The thing is, I know that you are right (in that I should read and learn from feminists), but, of course, when living amongst women, the sort of person who is interested in women and their feelings, frustrations and lives does pick up quite a lot.

The most important woman in my life, for example, is my wife, and every evening without fail, for over twenty years (August 7th 1992) we have bathed together with wine or tea etc and talked....... and listened...... for a long time, until the water gets cold and we have to run more. A totally platonic condition......switched off to attraction but switched on to togetherness. And still, even now, I learn things about her that I never knew before, or heard about so long ago that I have forgotten and needed to hear again. I might not have learned a lot about 'women', but I know a bit about my wife. And she does tell me, has told me over the years, about how other women might have felt or what they might have needed in various situations. Damn, I can't write anymore just now.....

That's very sweet. Thanks for sharing.

As an aside, as a woman myself, I still gained tremendous perspective from feminist writers who are able to study and articulate culture and politics from a female lens. I can still offer my perspective (and I was honestly struck by others here at RF who see me as a source for themselves since I don't see myself as a source), but years of reading and reading and discussing with others including a very good friend who is a feminist writer/researcher herself and earned a PhD in feminist literature.....gave me a world of perspective that even I never considered as a woman and as a feminist.

If/when you do pick up one of the books referenced earlier and wish to discuss it afterward, I'll be eagerly waiting.

 

[dust1n]

I was not writing to you, was I? I was writing to Riverwolfe. My report of what a woman said to me over tea is simply a stand-alone fact of her group's feelings and opinions. But what she said helped to influence me and my decisions. I don't mean to be rude, but I am searching for me, not for you.

You, producing a music-band from 40 years ago is 'behind the times'. Things move forward. Then producing a writer from before the word 'feminist' was produced. Time to wake up to 'here' and 'now'.

Fair enough, though Crass is only from 30 years ago, they are not the only band like it, and you will likely find more than you will at any earlier point in history. If you are just making an observation about what a women said about a man being a feminist as inappropriate, than fine. If you are not using it to suggest a point, then I'm not really sure what there is to debate about? If you think a man can be a feminist, there we have nothing debate immediately relevant to the OP.

So John Mill didn't call himself feminist. And the word, once created, meant being feminine. Kind of different, then? So back then, only females could be feminist? You are not helping yourself, are you? Not your best day, today, is it?

Because "feminism" as a term to describe women's suffrage had not yet been coined. Is your argument here that men can't be feminist because they weren't feminists before 1890 because the term didn't even existed in English?

Am I suppose to be in the 'hear and now' or 1875? Which is it? Or I should be reading outdated female discrimination laws from 1975 that are no longer applicable, the same years Crass were releasing albums?

 

[Riverwolf]

Okay? :sarcastic

Then you aren't an Egalitarian and will remain a feminist and be lured into liberal ideologies and political theatre if you live in America.If you have never herd of this before then I would suggest doing some research instead of asking me questions about it.

THIS IS A GOOD PLACE TO START!

Dude, how can I be lured into a political theater if I don't deal in politics? Those issues you linked to are serious issues, to be sure, but they're not the issues I put my focus in.

I told you: egalitarianism, it would appear, deals in seeking equality for everyone. Logically, feminism ought to fall under that, since it seeks equality between genders.

Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Riverwolf]

Oldbadger, which feminist works have you read, out of curiosity?

I will be absolutely fair, in that, though I am a feminist, I have not read any feminist books.

I call myself a feminist as a response to the various injustices I see being made towards women in my subculture.

 

[Wirey]

Al this talk about feminism is making me hungry. How 'bout you ladies having a big cup of shut the Hell up and whip me up a sammich? Then we'll talk about which one of you is the lucky one tonight, if you follow my drift. If you don't, I mean sex, and since you were too dim to puzzle that out, it's probably you.

 

[uberrobonomicon4000]

Dude, how can I be lured into a political theater if I don't deal in politics? Those issues you linked to are serious issues, to be sure, but they're not the issues I put my focus in.

That is why. You basically answered your own question. It’s because you don’t deal with politics and they aren't issues you put focus on.

I told you: egalitarianism, it would appear, deals in seeking equality for everyone. Logically, feminism ought to fall under that, since it seeks equality between genders.

Yes Egalitarianism does.

We have however, already had this discussion once. Feminism only deals with equality between genders, if and only if, you think inequality exists between genders. Those seem to be some very political issues, why are you so apolitical now? If it is just something you hold as a world view or a belief that equality should exist in places it doesn’t then great. But you can’t put on a magic cape, jump out of a 30 story building and expect to go save the world as superman. You should already know that especially if you agree with individualist feminism, which deals with libertarianism and egalitarianism. If you believe in individualism (which I do) then you can’t flop around like a fish out of water and except for people to take you seriously.

Is that so hard to understand?

No, it’s not hard to understand. I don’t know why you think I would have a hard time understanding it.