How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Skywalker]

As all I have to do is read sripture given by Jesus.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him"

1 John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Exodus 33:20 "But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

Such is the quandary we face.

Now we know we do not see God but the Messenger, who is the Representitive, or Self of God amongst us and we can listen to what Jesus offered

John 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."

So the Father will be another Messenger, who we will see His Form and Hear His voice, which is not seeing or hearing God in Essence.

God does not have a mouth.

I this verse Exodus 3:6 we can now consider a lot more, the verse says; "He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God..." Baha'u'llah has offered that it was He that was talking to Moses through the burning Bush.

Regards Tony

Jesus was talking about seeing God in his fullness. Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus being the son of God is a reference to Jesus being the second person of the Trinity.

Jesus as the Son of God

Biblical Meaning of "Son"

To understand the Biblical meaning of Jesus as "the Son of God", first we must examine the Biblical use of the word "son". In the Bible, "son" is a term expressing an intimate relationship with someone or something; basically, it indicates origin, but it is also used to express close association or identification with persons or things. Even when indicating origin, this term does not limit oneself to one's father and mother. One may be called the "son" of the following: his father and mother, his family, his tribe, his people, his place of birth (city or country), and the time or circumstance of his birth. The if "father-son" terminology is also used in connection with kings and their vassals or subjects, masters and servants, teachers and disciples, and almost any situation in which someone is subordinate to or dependent on someone else. The basic requirement of the "son" is to honour and obey his "father", but he should also love him and emulate him.

The term "son" is used in many other ways in the Bible, some of which are connected with origin but others of which mainly express some sort of association with or resemblance to persons or things. A large, somehow homogeneous group may be called "sons" (occupational and ethnic groups especially). Sometimes characteristics or qualities themselves are personified and regarded as having "sons" - those who possess that same characteristic or quality. Still also other uses of the term "son" in the Bible reflect the versatile and imaginative use of this term especially in the Hebrew language.

A complete list of the various uses of the term "son" in the Bible would be too long for this essay. A few of its more idiomatic uses are listed below, with their literal meanings and the translations of the Holy Bible, New International Version (or The New English Bible or Holy Bible, Revised Standard Version).

The concept of the Trinity is supported by the Old Testament. It doesn't mention three gods, it means a tri-unity within the Godhead. The Trinity: The Old Testament Evidence: A Multi-Personal God

The Oneness of God

The first question is how did the biblical authors, under the inspiration of God, conceive of the oneness of God? There are nine different Hebrew Words which at times are translated as the word "one:"

• 
  ish, ishah, nephesh, yachid, almoni, echad, gam, badad, chad (Chal.)

While such words as ish (man) or ishah (woman) are sometimes translated "one," they are never applied to God. Since God is not a man or a woman (Num. 23:19), this is what we would expect to find. The same applies to the word nephesh (soul) which is never used to speak of the oneness of God.

The question that comes to mind at this point is, if Unitarians wrote the Bible, which word for oneness would they apply to God? Out of all the words above, there is only one word which would indicate that God is one solitary person. If this word is applied to God in the Bible, this would be quite damaging to the Trinitarian position.

The word is "yachid" and means an absolute or solitary oneness.[1] It is even translated "solitary" in Psalm 68:6 and refers to someone who is absolutely alone. This is its general meaning throughout Scripture.[2]

Unitarians should naturally expect to find that the word yachid was applied to God in the Bible. On the other hand, Trinitarians would not expect to find yachidused of God because they believe that there are three Persons within the Godhead.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus was talking about seeing God in his fullness. Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus being the son of God is a reference to Jesus being the second person of the Trinity.

Jesus as the Son of God

The concept of the Trinity is supported by the Old Testament. It doesn't mention three gods, it means a tri-unity within the Godhead. The Trinity: The Old Testament Evidence: A Multi-Personal God

 

[Skywalker]

As all I have to do is read sripture given by Jesus.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him"

1 John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Exodus 33:20 "But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

Such is the quandary we face.

Now we know we do not see God but the Messenger, who is the Representitive, or Self of God amongst us and we can listen to what Jesus offered

John 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."

So the Father will be another Messenger, who we will see His Form and Hear His voice, which is not seeing or hearing God in Essence.

God does not have a mouth.

I this verse Exodus 3:6 we can now consider a lot more, the verse says; "He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God..." Baha'u'llah has offered that it was He that was talking to Moses through the burning Bush.

Regards Tony

Jesus appeared to Moses at the burning Bush. Is Jesus Christ The Angel of The Lord? – Finding Christ In The Old Testament

Who did Moses see in the burning bush? It was Jesus Christ.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. – Jesus Christ, John 5:39.

When Jesus Christ made the statement above, the “scriptures” at the time consisted solely of the Old Testament. And it raises a question that is often asked in the church – where is Jesus Christ in The Old Testament? Was Jesus sitting in Heaven just observing the world during the time of the Old Testament or was He actively interacting with humanity and appearing all throughout the Scriptures? This article will show that Jesus Christ indeed appears throughout the Old Testament and that the concept of God existing in more than one person was well-understood in ancient Jewish culture. And the mysterious Angel of The Lord, featured in the Old Testament, is indeed the Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes CG, it is their own free will choice.

Whereas that is absolutely true, whether God considers their choice reasonable and acceptable is another matter altogether.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus appeared to Moses at the burning Bush. Is Jesus Christ The Angel of The Lord? – Finding Christ In The Old Testament

Thank you for supporting the Message given by Baha'u'llah.

I fully expected for the Christain to now use the keys found in the Message given by Baha'u'llah in many of their explanations, as when the Word is given the power of its knowledge is released.

So see if you can trace back when it was Christians first Considered this matter.

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

Thank you for supporting the Message given by Baha'u'llah.

I fully expected for the Christain to now use the keys found in the Message given by Baha'u'llah in many of their explanations, as when the Word is given the power of its knowledge is released.

So see if you can trace back when it was Christians first Considered this matter.

Regards Tony

Jesus did not talk to Moses as a messenger, representative, or self of God. Moses heard the voice of God but he didn't see the Father.

 

[CG Didymus]

Before this thread vanishes, did we learn any acceptable and reasonable reasons why Jews can reject Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah?

I was expecting to hear something like... "They reject them because they are looking for a literal fulfillment of their prophecies." Not...

Yes CG, it is their own free will choice.

And what were those choices? With Jesus accept that is saves people from their sins? That he is God? That Baha'u'llah is the Messiah? Yes, those would be some choices, so why do they reject those choices?

Not believing what Jesus taught is different from Jesus never implying that he was God.

What Baha'is believe that Jesus taught is way different than what Christians believe.

Understanding what Jesus offered is also an important factor.

Yes, what did Jesus offer? Salvation? Eternal life? By doing what? Christians say by accepting that he paid the price for the sins of the people.

What do you believe Jesus offered?

Yes, what do Baha'is believe Jesus offered?

The vision and promise to enable us to embrace the Message given by the Father.

So we are supposed to understand what Jesus offered. Then you say it is the vision and promise to enable us to embrace the Message? And what message is that? You tend to go around in circles and being as vague as possible. And then usually say, "It is your choice."

How can one believe that and reject Jesus saying he was God?

Well, Baha'is don't believe the Christian salvation message. They don't believe Jesus is God. They don't believe in the devil. The don't believe he rose from the dead. What they believe is the "message" given by the Father is... "I'll be sending more prophets/comforters/Messiahs. They will lead you into more truth." But, if the Christian salvation message is true, there is no need for other messengers from God. Sins are paid for and Jesus will come back to destroy Satan. For the Baha'is to be true, none of that can be true. And all the time the Jews are watching and probably shaking their heads and saying something like, "Both of you are wrong. Jesus is not God, wasn't a sin sacrifice and Baha'u'llah, a Persian, is not the Jewish Messiah."

 

[Skywalker]

I was expecting to hear something like... "They reject them because they are looking for a literal fulfillment of their prophecies." Not...

And what were those choices? With Jesus accept that is saves people from their sins? That he is God? That Baha'u'llah is the Messiah? Yes, those would be some choices, so why do they reject those choices?

What Baha'is believe that Jesus taught is way different than what Christians believe.

Yes, what did Jesus offer? Salvation? Eternal life? By doing what? Christians say by accepting that he paid the price for the sins of the people.

Yes, what do Baha'is believe Jesus offered?

So we are supposed to understand what Jesus offered. Then you say it is the vision and promise to enable us to embrace the Message? And what message is that? You tend to go around in circles and being as vague as possible. And then usually say, "It is your choice."

Well, Baha'is don't believe the Christian salvation message. They don't believe Jesus is God. They don't believe in the devil. The don't believe he rose from the dead. What they believe is the "message" given by the Father is... "I'll be sending more prophets/comforters/Messiahs. They will lead you into more truth." But, if the Christian salvation message is true, there is no need for other messengers from God. Sins are paid for and Jesus will come back to destroy Satan. For the Baha'is to be true, none of that can be true. And all the time the Jews are watching and probably shaking their heads and saying something like, "Both of you are wrong. Jesus is not God, wasn't a sin sacrifice and Baha'u'llah, a Persian, is not the Jewish Messiah."

If there is no devil, who was the Satan in Job? The author of job treats Satan as someone distinct and separate from the "sons of God". I think satan was revealed to a greater extent in the New Testament, but he's it's underlined that Satan is a fallen angel in the book of Job. He's not one of the sons of God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I was expecting to hear something like... "They reject them because they are looking for a literal fulfillment of their prophecies." Not...

And what were those choices? With Jesus accept that is saves people from their sins? That he is God? That Baha'u'llah is the Messiah? Yes, those would be some choices, so why do they reject those choices?

What Baha'is believe that Jesus taught is way different than what Christians believe.

Yes, what did Jesus offer? Salvation? Eternal life? By doing what? Christians say by accepting that he paid the price for the sins of the people.

Yes, what do Baha'is believe Jesus offered?

So we are supposed to understand what Jesus offered. Then you say it is the vision and promise to enable us to embrace the Message? And what message is that? You tend to go around in circles and being as vague as possible. And then usually say, "It is your choice."

Well, Baha'is don't believe the Christian salvation message. They don't believe Jesus is God. They don't believe in the devil. The don't believe he rose from the dead. What they believe is the "message" given by the Father is... "I'll be sending more prophets/comforters/Messiahs. They will lead you into more truth." But, if the Christian salvation message is true, there is no need for other messengers from God. Sins are paid for and Jesus will come back to destroy Satan. For the Baha'is to be true, none of that can be true. And all the time the Jews are watching and probably shaking their heads and saying something like, "Both of you are wrong. Jesus is not God, wasn't a sin sacrifice and Baha'u'llah, a Persian, is not the Jewish Messiah."

For it to be all true CG the solution is easy.

Either Baha'u'llah is as claimed and it is True, or Baha'u'llah is not as He claimed and it is not true.

Such is the quandary we all face when we look at the history of religion.

To me the answer has been found and now it is up to me to change my own self, to live a life of peace and unity under One God as part of One Human family.

I have answered all the questions you have asked, from my understanding of what Baha'u'llah offered.

This is what Baha'u'llah offered to me, you and all people, it is under a spoiler so it is a definite choice to look.

Spoiler

"THE world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.
Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.
Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth. Say: Through it the poor have been enriched, the learned enlightened, and the seekers enabled to ascend unto the presence of God. Beware, lest ye make it a cause of dissension amongst you. Be ye as firmly settled as the immovable mountain in the Cause of your Lord, the Mighty, the Loving"

All the best for eternity CG

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

Here's the thing. I told you the answer in previous threads in previous conversations. What I notice is that you don't listen or value what I've said or what other Jewish people have said. So, until you can demonstrate that my words have value, I'm not going to give away the answer.

I'll give you a hint: There are two transgressions Matthew 5. You're on the right track by quoting verse 18. The trangressions violate words of Torah from Moses, not from Mishnah, Talmud, or Midrash.


Nope, that's not it.

"Jesus as described in the NT does not encourage Torah observance."

"Jesus as described in the NT encourages Jewish people to transgress."

The Jewish writings claim that when Messiah arrives, he will be the interpreter of the Torah and teach us accordingly. That is exactly what Jesus did during his time on earth. Not only did he interpret the Torah, he said that he came to fulfill it and not do away with it (Matthew 5:17). Jesus taught that the heart behind each commandment is the key, not just the required action.

 

[Skywalker]

As all I have to do is read sripture given by Jesus.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him"

1 John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Exodus 33:20 "But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

Such is the quandary we face.

Now we know we do not see God but the Messenger, who is the Representitive, or Self of God amongst us and we can listen to what Jesus offered

John 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."

So the Father will be another Messenger, who we will see His Form and Hear His voice, which is not seeing or hearing God in Essence.

God does not have a mouth.

I this verse Exodus 3:6 we can now consider a lot more, the verse says; "He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God..." Baha'u'llah has offered that it was He that was talking to Moses through the burning Bush.

Regards Tony

Jesus told the Pharisees, before Abraham was I am. John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[dybmh]

The Jewish writings claim that when Messiah arrives, he will be the interpreter of the Torah and teach us accordingly.

OK...

That is exactly what Jesus did during his time on earth.

Maybe... Maybe not.

Not only did he interpret the Torah, he said that he came to fulfill it and not do away with it (Matthew 5:17).

Fulfillling the law could result in a blessing or a curse...

Jesus taught that the heart behind each commandment is the key, not just the required action.

The Torah teaches not to follow the heart... Jeremiah agrees.

 

[Aupmanyav]

OP: Add Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to the list. Yeah, how can?

He's not one of the sons of God.

Who are the sons of God? Did they become sons of God like in case of Jesus (Immaculate conception, breathed in by the Holy Ghost)?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, Bahaollah was uneducated and sorry for that. Why did not he study in Tehran, Egypt or Turkey? His father was not a poor person.

Moses heard the voice of God but he didn't see the Father.

He did see the hind part as I have read.

 

[Skywalker]

OK...

Maybe... Maybe not.

Fulfillling the law could result in a blessing or a curse...

The Torah teaches not to follow the heart... Jeremiah agrees.

Jesus doesn't teach to listen to your heart. Jeremiah 17:9 says

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[dybmh]

Jesus doesn't teach to listen to your heart.

The Christian scripture can be interpretted in many ways.

 

[Skywalker]

The Christian scripture can be interpretted in many ways.

Where did Jesus teach to listen to your heart? Jesus taught us to trust and rely on God for everything.

Listen to Your Heart: More Things God Never Said

God tells us quite a lot in His word about listening to your heart. When we look at the things God did say about the condition of our hearts, it becomes evident that we’re in serious heart trouble.

Jeremiah 17:9 says, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” That’s true of my heart, of your heart, and of every heart beating in every human chest.

Truth is, we need a spiritual heart transplant.

Another reason why it’s disastrous to trust in our own hearts is because our hearts are at the center of our fallen, sinful nature. Jesus teaches us, “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander” (Matthew 15:19), and Proverbs 28:26 says, “Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.”

 

[dybmh]

Where did Jesus teach to listen to your heart?

Matthew 13:15... understanding with the heart

Jesus taught us to trust and rely on God for everything.

Great!

 

[Skywalker]

Matthew 13:15... understanding with the heart

Great!

Understanding with the heart is different from looking to yourself and mindfulness to find answers to things. The words of Jesus have to be read in full context for the proper meaning to be understood.

 

[dybmh]

Understanding with the heart is different from looking to yourself and mindfulness to find answers to things. The words of Jesus have to be read in full context for the proper meaning to be understood.

You're the expert