How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[TransmutingSoul]

Much talk of One God

I wonder when, we, as a human race, will be One?

Many men with faith, have a faith that they say can not be outdone!

Yet history shows that with God and Faith, there is always another One!

So, the world waits, minds stay the same, divided, predudiced, all the while saying we are to be One, it's just my God you need, I am not to be outdone!

Then God tells us that we are all One, that God is indeed One, that all Faiths are One, from One Source, that we are created to be one in purpose and yet, those with the One God are still not to be outdone?

I wonder when we as the human race will be one? It appears it will take more than G_d simply asking, it may take the shacking of the limbs of all mankind and the destruction of a man made reality of this world. Time will tell, as it has for every civilization that thought it knew best.

Where are the conversations where we all strive to embrace the Light?

Love and all the best to all peoples.

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

You're the expert

Matthew 15:19 is antithetical to the world's teaching of listen to your heart.

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

 

[CG Didymus]

If there is no devil, who was the Satan in Job? The author of job treats Satan as someone distinct and separate from the "sons of God". I think satan was revealed to a greater extent in the New Testament, but he's it's underlined that Satan is a fallen angel in the book of Job. He's not one of the sons of God.

Making Satan nothing but an allegorical story is easier for Baha'is, than making the resurrection of Jesus allegory. But that is why I keep asking them, after Baha'is stop making things in the Jewish Bible and the Christian NT allegorical, what is left? They say that what is left is the teachings of Jesus? And now we are going to trust what the gospel writers say?

But what do you think... Take away the resurrection and Satan and what is left of the Christian message? Make Satan and the resurrection allegorical and what kind of Christianity does that become?

 

[CG Didymus]

For it to be all true CG the solution is easy.

Either Baha'u'llah is as claimed and it is True, or Baha'u'llah is not as He claimed and it is not true.

And that is what we are talking about. If Baha'u'llah is true, then Jesus is dead. The whole Christian salvation thing is baloney. And Jesus was just one of many "messiahs". But then also, every other religion has problems with their beliefs. The Baha'i Faith nullifies all the other religions. We no longer have to believe in the things the other religions teach as true. What becomes the "truth" of those other religions is only what the Baha'i Faith says is true about them. And that is what is happening here on this thread. Did Jesus physically rise from the dead? The Baha'is say "no", and that is all we need to know. If the Baha'is say the gospel writers were writing a parable about Jesus rising from the dead, then that's what happened. Christians who believe otherwise are wrong.

But, all I ask is... where does the story all of a sudden become allegory? Sure it has things in the story that are hard to believe, and with what we know today, don't believe really happened... But the story is written as a real historical account of what happened. All I'm saying, if you're not going to believe it is true, then why not use the simple explanation... They made those things up. 2000 years ago all religious beliefs had miraculous things going on, dying and rising Gods were common, along with virgin births and Gods impregnating human woman. I don't think you have to try and find some deep, mystical allegorical meaning. The story was meant to get people to believe Jesus was from God and had the power to forgive them of their sins and save them from hell and give them eternal life in heaven. What could a dead Jesus do for them?

What are people going to do... "Gee, Jesus is dead. But he was a nice guy. Let's follow his example and love one another... and let the Romans torture us to death for believing in him." Or, "Jesus promised us salvation and has conquered death and Satan by rising from the dead. And if we follow his commandments, he is faithful and true to save us from Satan's clutches and give us eternal life." Maybe that second one is wrong, but I think that's exactly what was intended. And it worked, and for some, it is still working. Superstitious? Idiotic? Yeah, sure. Of course they should dump those old beliefs and get with a more practical religion.

And many have... some have become some type of Buddhist or Hindu, some have become Mormons or JW's, or the new improved version of Catholics or some liberal form of Christianity, maybe Reformed Jews or some New Age religion or even Scientologists and some have become Baha'is. The problem for me with the Baha'i Faith is that it is still saying that... it is the only one.... that all the others maybe at some time were right, but now are wrong. So can Baha'is truly say all the religions are one, while at the same time saying that all of them have added in traditions and have misinterpreted their own Scriptures, so are therefore, wrong? And I don't even thing, as with the case of the NT, that it is the interpretations that are wrong. If the Baha'is are right, then the NT itself is wrong. That is, unless you can clearly show how the resurrection story was always meant to be a parable.

 

[Skywalker]

Making Satan nothing but an allegorical story is easier for Baha'is, than making the resurrection of Jesus allegory. But that is why I keep asking them, after Baha'is stop making things in the Jewish Bible and the Christian NT allegorical, what is left? They say that what is left is the teachings of Jesus? And now we are going to trust what the gospel writers say?

But what do you think... Take away the resurrection and Satan and what is left of the Christian message? Make Satan and the resurrection allegorical and what kind of Christianity does that become?

Satan being described as an allegory doesn't make sense, because if good exists, then evil exists. The Bible mentions Satan because it's important to know that evil exists so that you stay away from it. If you look around you, you know that evil exists.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes CG, it is their own free will choice.

I don't understand why Baha'is use "free will" so much? There were times, and probably even today, when people have no choice to which religion they belong to and what they should believe. But when it comes to the Jews, you don't think they have done some "personal" investigation of the truth? Yet, they still remain Jews. What are the reasons? What are the problems they have with becoming a Christian, a Muslim or a Baha'i? Isn't that what you asked for in the OP? What did you find out?

 

[CG Didymus]

As all I have to do is read sripture given by Jesus.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him"

1 John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Exodus 33:20 "But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

Such is the quandary we face.

Now we know we do not see God but the Messenger, who is the Representitive, or Self of God amongst us and we can listen to what Jesus offered

John 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."

So the Father will be another Messenger, who we will see His Form and Hear His voice, which is not seeing or hearing God in Essence.

God does not have a mouth.

I this verse Exodus 3:6 we can now consider a lot more, the verse says; "He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God..." Baha'u'llah has offered that it was He that was talking to Moses through the burning Bush.

Regards Tony

You do realize that now you are acting as if these verses are literally true. But, with other verses, Baha'is make them symbolic. Christians do the opposite. The verses that make Jesus into God are literal, and verses like these are him talking from his human side, not his God side.

 

[CG Didymus]

Satan being described as an allegory doesn't make sense, because if good exists, then evil exists. The Bible mentions Satan because it's important to know that evil exists so that you stay away from it. If you look around you, you know that evil exists.

Yes, evil certainly exists. But Baha'is kind of saying it doesn't. I think they use the analogy of a dark room, and as soon as you turn on the light, the evil, or darkness, disappears. And, is that all that much different than what Christians are saying... evil exists and Satan exists, then one day Jesus is going to do away with them. But, either way, God thought it a good idea to create evil and a Satan? Nothing like a little pain and suffering to show how much God loves us.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, evil certainly exists. But Baha'is kind of saying it doesn't. I think they use the analogy of a dark room, and as soon as you turn on the light, the evil, or darkness, disappears. And, is that all that much different than what Christians are saying... evil exists and Satan exists, then one day Jesus is going to do away with them. But, either way, God thought it a good idea to create evil and a Satan? Nothing like a little pain and suffering to show how much God loves us.

God didn't create the fallen angels and God doesn't create sinners. The fallen angels chose of their own free will to rebel against God. God created Lucifer sinless. He was God's most precious cherub but he chose to lead a rebellion of one third of the angels.

Ezekiel 28:15

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What did you find out?

That they use their free will to make the choice they have. May G_d be our guide.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that is what we are talking about. If Baha'u'llah is true, then Jesus is dead

Now one can consider what the Quran said, and put that comment to perspective.

Yusuf Ali—That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’; – but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

Remember Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that is life and you can not kill Christ. Muslims who also use material thought, also think that Jesus was not killed, but it is Christ the Spirit that is being talked about.

Really CG, I ask, in this age of science, do we really need to clarify this further, or is that more logical?

So the Quran also shows how the Messengers are One and shows how God gives us progressive revelation.

[2:136] Say, [O believers], “We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.”

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You do realize that now you are acting as if these verses are literally true. But, with other verses, Baha'is make them symbolic. Christians do the opposite. The verses that make Jesus into God are literal, and verses like these are him talking from his human side, not his God side.

It is the spirit within the word being discussed CG, which unfolds in this material world as God so chooses.
'
The Spirit that was Christ, the 'Self of God' in Jesus the Son, is now the 'Glory of God' the 'Self of God' in Baha'u'llah, the Father.

No one has seen God at any time not the Son, not the Father, but now the Father has declared God unto us, guided us unto all Truth

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is the spirit within the word being discussed CG, which unfolds in this material world as God so chooses.
'
The Spirit that was Christ, the 'Self of God' in Jesus the Son, is now the 'Glory of God' the 'Self of God' in Baha'u'llah, the Father.

No one has seen God at any time not the Son, not the Father, but now the Father has declared God unto us, guided us unto all Truth

Regards Tony

So the OP asks why a Jew rejects Jesus, Muhammad and the Baha'i prophets. But, I wonder, why do Baha'is reject the beliefs of every sect of Judaism, Christianity and Islam? Isn't it because you believe they are wrong? There is really no form of any of those religions, and you can include Hinduism and Buddhism too, that the Baha'is believe have the correct beliefs and practices. You believe your religion is the only one that is right. It is you, the Baha'is that say all the others have added things in and have misinterpreted things. So what is this "spirit" of oneness? Where is the reality of the belief that all religions are one? Baha'is are just as much against the other religions as everybody else, but they pretend to be accepting of them. I've asked several times now, what other sect or denomination of any other religion do Baha'is accept and believe is teaching and practicing the Truth about God? Is there any?

 

[CG Didymus]

God didn't create the fallen angels and God doesn't create sinners. The fallen angels chose of their own free will to rebel against God. God created Lucifer sinless. He was God's most precious cherub but he chose to lead a rebellion of one third of the angels.

Ezekiel 28:15

Well now to take the side of Baha'is, I do believe a lot of that kind of stuff is at best allegorical, or just plain old myth. Why does a story about a fallen angel have to be real? Why would an all knowing God create such a being? And then, supposedly, when he does fall, cast him down to Earth and let him tempt and torment humans? And an all knowing God would of course know that easily tempted humans would fall for the devil's tricks. And with the very first failure, the Adam and Eve thing, God curses them for failing? He put the forbidden fruit there knowing that the serpent would tempt them, and God knew that Adam and Eve would fail.

Great story to get people to understand why the world is so screwed up. But how is it different than all the other myths of all the other people in the world. To me it makes more sense to me to believe that those stories weren't true but just legends and myths. Where I disagree with Baha'is is that they keep saying that it was a mistake and a misinterpretation for people to take those stories literally. I think that those stories were meant to be taken literally. They were meant to get the people to believe in this invisible all powerful God. Then Christians, then Muslims, and now Baha'is build off those stories and create new beliefs.

But each of those religions doesn't make a perfect transition from the old one to the new one. There are always things that don't fit... that don't seem right, and give people in the older religion to doubt and question the validity of the newer one. And so it is with the Jews. I think they have good reasons to reject all those religions that have come after them. Just like Christians have very good reasons to reject both Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Skywalker]

Well now to take the side of Baha'is, I do believe a lot of that kind of stuff is at best allegorical, or just plain old myth. Why does a story about a fallen angel have to be real? Why would an all knowing God create such a being? And then, supposedly, when he does fall, cast him down to Earth and let him tempt and torment humans? And an all knowing God would of course know that easily tempted humans would fall for the devil's tricks. And with the very first failure, the Adam and Eve thing, God curses them for failing? He put the forbidden fruit there knowing that the serpent would tempt them, and God knew that Adam and Eve would fail.

Great story to get people to understand why the world is so screwed up. But how is it different than all the other myths of all the other people in the world. To me it makes more sense to me to believe that those stories weren't true but just legends and myths. Where I disagree with Baha'is is that they keep saying that it was a mistake and a misinterpretation for people to take those stories literally. I think that those stories were meant to be taken literally. They were meant to get the people to believe in this invisible all powerful God. Then Christians, then Muslims, and now Baha'is build off those stories and create new beliefs.

But each of those religions doesn't make a perfect transition from the old one to the new one. There are always things that don't fit... that don't seem right, and give people in the older religion to doubt and question the validity of the newer one. And so it is with the Jews. I think they have good reasons to reject all those religions that have come after them. Just like Christians have very good reasons to reject both Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

Everyone knows that evil exists. Even without the Bible, people know that evil exists. If there is spiritual good, there is spiritual evil. Look around you. There is no other explanation for some things that exist, other than evil. If people don't follow good, they follow evil.

Do you think the story of people eating meat only after the flood is an allegory?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the OP asks why a Jew rejects Jesus, Muhammad and the Baha'i prophets. But, I wonder, why do Baha'is reject the beliefs of every sect of Judaism, Christianity and Islam? Isn't it because you believe they are wrong? There is really no form of any of those religions, and you can include Hinduism and Buddhism too, that the Baha'is believe have the correct beliefs and practices. You believe your religion is the only one that is right. It is you, the Baha'is that say all the others have added things in and have misinterpreted things. So what is this "spirit" of oneness? Where is the reality of the belief that all religions are one? Baha'is are just as much against the other religions as everybody else, but they pretend to be accepting of them. I've asked several times now, what other sect or denomination of any other religion do Baha'is accept and believe is teaching and practicing the Truth about God? Is there any?

You are well aware we do not reject any Messenger or their Message CG and this has been explained in great detail.

If you wonder how this can be, why not just consider this passage from one of those books;

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"

Search the Bible CG and look how many passages that say God makes all things new. If someone then chooses to still own the old?

How many do you want, there are numerous quotes

Isaiah 65:17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Source: 15 Bible verses about The New Creation

That a Baha'i sees what was offered in a different light, such has been the quandary faced since time began.

Also no Baha'i compels any person to see it in any other way than they want to and if others do not want to consider that it is God that makes all things new, as God so chooses, then who am I to say they must.

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

You are well aware we do not reject any Messenger or their Message CG and this has been explained in great detail.

If you wonder how this can be, why not just consider this passage from one of those books;

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"

Search the Bible CG and look how many passages that say God makes all things new. If someone then chooses to still own the old?

How many do you want, there are numerous quotes

Isaiah 65:17“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Source: 15 Bible verses about The New Creation

That a Baha'i sees what was offered in a different light, such has been the quandary faced since time began.

Also no Baha'i compels any person to see it in any other way than they want to and if others do not want to consider that it is God that makes all things new, as God so chooses, then who am I to say they must.

Regards Tony

God making all things new doesn't support Jesus being a manifestation of God. Jesus didn't want to be confused with God the Father. The concept of tri-unity existed as early as Genesis 1:26. The New Testament doesn't use the term Trinity but it uses the term Godhead. Genesis 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Colossians 2:9

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The tri-unity of God is mentioned all over the Old and New Testament.

Revisiting “Where Did Jesus Say ‘I am God’” – A Response to the Muhammedan Site “Do Not Say Trinity”

Revisiting the issue of why Jesus Didn’t Say the Exact Words “I am God”

DNST cites numerous Old Testament texts where God says “I am God” or something close to that (Gen. 35:11; Gen. 46:3; Exo. 6:7; Exo. 16:12; Lev. 11:44 etc). Because it is a repeated theme for God to say “I am God” in the Old Testament the argument is that Christ should have come out and said “I am God” with those exact words as well. DNST argues that this phrase “has always been an insignia of traditional Judeo-Christian God” and thus we would expect Christ to use it without hesitation if He were truly God.

The problem is that if Jesus were to come out and say “I am God” without clearly and forcefully establishing his personal distinction from the Father, and His deity in relation to that fact, people would think He was claiming to be the same person as the Father. This is because God was used primarily in reference to the Father and virtually served as His proper name. In other words, to come out and say “I am God” instead of first establishing His distinction from the Father, would lead His followers into thinking He was making himself out to be the Father in heaven.(1) This is why Jesus didn’t just walk around saying “I am God” as the Muslims demand.

 

[CG Didymus]

You are well aware we do not reject any Messenger or their Message

I'm aware that Baha'is say that, but what I'm talking about is how Baha'is reject the practices and beliefs of every other religion. So sure, Baha'is want them to leave the old and accept Baha'u'llah and become "new" creatures following the laws and teachings of the Baha'i Faith. Which, I will agree with you, those teachings are probably better than what some sects of some religions teach. But for me, there is just way too many inconsistencies and contradictions. And, from what Baha'is have told me, those are because the followers of that religion have added in false beliefs and traditions along with misinterpreting their Scriptures... that, supposedly, the "original" teachings of the prophet were all consistent. Of course, there is no "original" teachings in any of the older religions. Am I misunderstanding something here, or is that how Baha'is believe?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm aware that Baha'is say that, but what I'm talking about is how Baha'is reject the practices and beliefs of every other religion. So sure, Baha'is want them to leave the old and accept Baha'u'llah and become "new" creatures following the laws and teachings of the Baha'i Faith. Which, I will agree with you, those teachings are probably better than what some sects of some religions teach. But for me, there is just way too many inconsistencies and contradictions. And, from what Baha'is have told me, those are because the followers of that religion have added in false beliefs and traditions along with misinterpreting their Scriptures... that, supposedly, the "original" teachings of the prophet were all consistent. Of course, there is no "original" teachings in any of the older religions. Am I misunderstanding something here, or is that how Baha'is believe?

It is naught about how any Baha'i or any others see it CG.

It is all about if you choose to pursue what Baha'u'llah offered and decide for your own self.

The Kitab-i-Iqan is a treasure of information as to the Revelation given by God through the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is naught about how any Baha'i or any others see it CG.

It is all about if you choose to pursue what Baha'u'llah offered and decide for your own self.

The Kitab-i-Iqan is a treasure of information as to the Revelation given by God through the Messengers.

Regards Tony

No? It is "naught" how an individual Baha'i sees it. What does the Baha'i Faith says about the current beliefs and practices of every other religion? Are they teaching the truth about God or have they added in traditions of men and have misinterpreted things and have developed many doctrines and beliefs that aren't true? Like for Christians... believing that Jesus physically rose from the dead and he, himself and not someone else, is returning? And then there is the doctrine of the Trinity. Do Baha'is reject those beliefs or not?

Then the Kitab-i-iqan... I've quoted this before...

Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’”3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and traditions, there remained with Him only forty or seventy-two of His followers.​

Is that the truth about Noah? That for 950 years he exhorted his people? So do Baha'is believe people in Genesis really lived for hundreds of years? I don't think so. So why does Baha'u'llah say that Noah did? Then, this story of Noah is nothing like the Biblical story of Noah and him building a boat and loading it up with animals and that whole thing about the world being flooded. So which story is correct, the Bible or the Kitab-i-Iqan? And what are those "best-known" books? He says that those books can corroborate what he is saying, so could you quote what it says about Noah from those "well-known" books?