How can we know "God" exists?

[Orias]

Perhaps we should be asking, "How do we know it is unlikely that God exists?"

And my answer would be, "Because the world appears to be identical to a world in which God doesn't exist."

The opposite could also easily be conjured. We appear to live in a world where symbolism is identical with relation and association. Through this we develop beliefs based off of existing symbols, whether or not we agree or belief the symbol was developed or stands on solid ground is irrelevant, because the symbol is either used or it isn't (theistic vs theistic).

Personally I think it matters when people become evangelical young earth creationists and angry Muslim extremists.
Otherwise we should all drink our tea and shut up.

I disagree, it doesn't matter, because no matter how much effort we put into our P.O.V there is always someone who will just ignore what you said and shoot you down. It doesn't matter how smart or rational you are, if you can't defend what you subscribe to then it must not be worth the subscription.

 

[Athan]

How do you view God? As a literal metaphysical being in the sky? As a state of being? As a force that transcends all? Not literally real, but a symbol that points to something beyond what we can comprehend?

Is there any evidence for God? Scientific, anecdotal, philosophical or otherwise?

I think that the possibility of God is great, considering how organized and precise the universe is; but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I believe in God.

God is a perfected being of flesh and bone. He created each one of us to become more like Him.

 

[Ouroboros]

God is a perfected being of flesh and bone. He created each one of us to become more like Him.

LOL!!!

No, wait, you're serious? :areyoucra

 

[Athan]

LOL!!!

No, wait, you're serious? :areyoucra

Of course I am. Why aren't you?

 

[Ouroboros]

Of course I am. Why aren't you?

Flesh and bone are made out of biological material. It's something that's not perfect in itself, and... it's physical matter.

Um... if you don't see the problem, there's not much to say.

 

[Willamena]

Flesh and bone are made out of biological material. It's something that's not perfect in itself, and... it's physical matter.

It's perfectly physical.

 

[Ouroboros]

It's perfectly physical.

So then God is part of the universe?

Or is the supernatural/spiritual world also physical and biological (but in a perfect sense)?

What does that make our world? Not perfect? Hmm... kind of bites the "this world is perfect so it must have a creator" argument in its perfect butt.

 

[Willamena]

So then God is part of the universe?

It can be, for instance for Mormons who invest in Jesus' divinity.

Or is the supernatural/spiritual world also physical and biological (but in a perfect sense)?

What does that make our world? Not perfect? Hmm... kind of bites the "this world is perfect so it must have a creator" argument in its perfect butt.

Not necessarily: the image of god as transcendent and imminent "source of all" provides just such a metaphysical model. "God" is the world aroudn us and a world-plus state from which the world springs.

 

[Athan]

Flesh and bone are made out of biological material. It's something that's not perfect in itself, and... it's physical matter.

Um... if you don't see the problem, there's not much to say.

Are you saying that matter cannot be perfected? You may as well try to tell me that God doesn't exist.

 

[Ouroboros]

It can be, for instance for Mormons who invest in Jesus' divinity.


Not necessarily: the image of god as transcendent and imminent "source of all" provides just such a metaphysical model. "God" is the world aroudn us and a world-plus state from which the world springs.

Well, metaphysical is beyond physical. A perfect physical being is a being that is beyond physical? Sounds contradictory to me.

 

[Ouroboros]

Are you saying that matter cannot be perfected?

Eh. I don't see how. Matter is what matter is. There's no single one biological perfection. The only thing that can be seen in the biological world is variety. The ability to adapt and change is its perfection.

You may as well try to tell me that God doesn't exist.

Why should I tell you that?

If God is matter, then it's possible that the world is God, then pantheism or panentheism or naturalism are all perfectly fine to explain our existence.

 

[Ouroboros]

Question then:

If God is a perfect biological being, does it mean that his digestive tract can break down anything for food? The enzymes and bacteria are perfect too? He got perfect 5 toes on each perfect foot (perfectly 2 as it so happens instead of just imperfect 2) with perfect nails?

... I just don't see "perfect" fits the biological concept.

 

[Willamena]

Well, metaphysical is beyond physical. A perfect physical being is a being that is beyond physical? Sounds contradictory to me.

Metaphysical means a "bigger" picture, all-encompassing, one that will include the physical and the mental, and any other "essences" deemed important.

 

[Willamena]

Question then:

If God is a perfect biological being, does it mean that his digestive tract can break down anything for food? The enzymes and bacteria are perfect too? He got perfect 5 toes on each perfect foot (perfectly 2 as it so happens instead of just imperfect 2) with perfect nails?

... I just don't see "perfect" fits the biological concept.

Is the purpose of a digestive tract to break down anything for food?

Edit: You're holding a digestive tract to something that's not its purpose. That's not an example of perfection or imperfection, that's just an example of unfairness.

 

[Ouroboros]

Metaphysical means a "bigger" picture, all-encompassing, one that will include the physical and the mental, and any other "essences" deemed important.

Yeah. But perfect physical doesn't mean bigger physical or more than physical. Perfect physical only means perfection within the object of the "perfect" attribute. Perfect banana that looks and tastes like an orange isn't a perfect banana.

Put it this way, how would a "perfect electron" look like? If you change any attribute or parameter of an electron, like it's charge or mass, it will not be an electron anymore. Your perfect particle can take on other forms but it won't be a electron by being a perfect electron. A perfect electron is by definition an electron the way an electron is.

A perfect physical thing would be all physical, not more physical or other than physical or less than physical, but only physical. The word "perfect" just doesn't apply to physical anymore than perfect banana would make it more banana than regular banana.

Or put it this way, what is perfect green?

 

[Ouroboros]

Is the purpose of a digestive tract to break down anything for food?

Does God have a digestive tract that is perfect is the question.

If God is a perfect biological being, organic, physical, etc, then he must have a perfect mDNA, perfect DNA, perfect protons, perfect enzymes, perfect appendix, and so on.

I'm looking at the "perfect" applied to the actual thing, not as word to mean something different than the thing.

Edit: You're holding a digestive tract to something that's not its purpose. That's not an example of perfection or imperfection, that's just an example of unfairness.

Uh.

The digestive tract is for the purpose of holding food while it is being digested, hence the word "digestive tract". At least I thought so. But if the comparison doesn't fit you, then let's do perfect nails. Does God have perfect nails? How does perfect nails look like? Does God have perfect hair? Perfect ears? Perfect eyes? Perfect mustache? What does the word "perfect organic" or "perfect biological" being really mean at all?

Is the artist painting a painting a perfect painting himself? What if the painting is perfect already? And how can the painter be a painting himself?

If God created physics and biology, and that is perfect already (argument for God's existence), then God's physics and biology isn't "more" perfect since our perfect world is already perfect. Are we suggesting that God created his own physics and biology first before he created it for us and both are perfect? I don't see how all these things connect.

See if you can explain it better so I can understand.

 

[Willamena]

What does the word [perfect] really mean at all?

Complete unto itself.

 

[Willamena]

A perfect physical thing would be all physical, not more physical or other than physical or less than physical, but only physical.

So a perfect physical god would be all physical. That is one image of god (the material pantheistic, for instance).

Does God have a digestive tract that is perfect is the question.

If God is a perfect biological being, organic, physical, etc, then he must have a perfect mDNA, perfect DNA, perfect protons, perfect enzymes, perfect appendix, and so on.

I'm looking at the "perfect" applied to the actual thing, not as word to mean something different than the thing.

"Imperfection" only enters the picture when a mind compares something to something else and finds it lacking. Comparison is only possible with a mind, and only necessary when that mind is critical.

Does God have perfect nails? How does perfect nails look like? Does God have perfect hair? Perfect ears? Perfect eyes? Perfect mustache? What does the word "perfect organic" or "perfect biological" being really mean at all?

Is the artist painting a painting a perfect painting himself? What if the painting is perfect already? And how can the painter be a painting himself?

Why not? Now we're touching on mysticism.
http://levgrossman.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/escher.gif

If God created physics and biology, and that is perfect already (argument for God's existence), then God's physics and biology isn't "more" perfect since our perfect world is already perfect. Are we suggesting that God created his own physics and biology first before he created it for us and both are perfect? I don't see how all these things connect.

See if you can explain it better so I can understand.

If God created physics and biology, are they not the physics and biology that we have? Why should they be "more" perfect than they are? I'm not following you.

 

[Ouroboros]

Complete unto itself.

Ok. Still can something be "more" complete than something that is already complete? Physics is complete unto itself. So how can something be "more" complete?

 

[Katzpur]

So then God is part of the universe?

It can be, for instance for Mormons who invest in Jesus' divinity.

I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to say, Willamena, particularly in the context of Ouroboros' question. Would you mind clarifying?