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How can we know "God" exists?

Ouroboros

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Willamena said:
So a perfect physical god would be all physical. That is one image of god (the material pantheistic, for instance).
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I conceded that point earlier that if would fit for naturalism and pantheism, but I didn't get that impression that it was that kind of God we were talking about. If that's what you think Athan was talking about a pantheistic God, then I kind of can understand, but I think he/she (I have to go back and look to confirm) that God was perfect biological. I might have misread his/her post then. Biological is a very limited and specific kind of being, and very finite. God as perfect finite and perfect biological wouldn't make sense.

"Imperfection" only enters the picture when a mind compares something to something else and finds it lacking. Comparison is only possible with a mind, and only necessary when that mind is critical.
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And?

What I said was that an argument for God based on the premise that this world is already perfect and therefore would require a creator would be in conflict with a God which is perfect compared to an imperfect world.

So we have one conflict: The world is perfect, but not really, because God is perfect and this world is not.

And then the other conflict: God is the creator of this world because we couldn't randomly become biological beings, but then... God is a perfect biological being...?

Why not? Now we're touching on mysticism. :)
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Eh. Sure. I just had the impression that Athan was talking about a supernatural biological being who is perfect in being biological and physical. I can understand the physical part from a naturalist, mysticist, pantheist standpoint. I'll admit to that. Biological no. But I have to check if that.

Ah. Here it is. "God is a perfected being of flesh and bone. He created each one of us to become more like Him." Hmm.... become "more" like him who is perfect and God is perfect flesh and perfect bone... Eh. No.

Perfect physical, in naturalist/pantheist sense, sure. No problem. Flesh and bones... not so much.

If God created physics and biology, are they not the physics and biology that we have? Why should they be "more" perfect than they are? I'm not following you.
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Exactly. They are what they are. Athan suggests that God is perfect flesh and bone, and I don't see how that's possible. Flesh and bone is biological/organic, and the only perfection there is variety. It would work if we say that all organic matter as a collection is God. Sure. Let's go with that. :)

Physics is what it is. It's perfect and complete in and onto itself. A God which is then "perfect" physically wouldn't and couldn't be anything more or different than the physics we have that is complete. Nothing can be "more" complete or "more" perfect" than something that already is. If we suggest that God's physics is perfect, and our physics is only a flawed image of God's perfect physics, then our physics isn't perfect but imperfect. Hence, the premise of "this world is perfect therefore there must be a creator" would be in contradiction. (Unless we decide that the Law of Noncontradiction isn't valid. :shrug:)
 
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Ouroboros

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Willamena said:
Of course not. Why do you ask?

(I obviously missed something.)
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Because, I was responding to Athan and had one line of thinking. You made a post to my post to Athan and I was still in the same line of thinking. So I feel I didn't understand you in the light of the what I was talking to Athan about. It takes some time to shift framework.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Willamena said:
Jesus, as a man who came to be like god, is a part of the universe.
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I'm not sure if you're saying that's what you perceive Mormon doctrine to be, but if it is, you've kind of misunderstood what we believe.

We believe that Jesus Christ, like His Father, has always been "God." He was "God" before He was born; He was "God" while He was here on earth, and He continues to be "God" today. He shares the title of "God" with His Father, but is not the same being as His Father. I have never heard a Mormon say that He's "part of the universe," and don't expect to ever hear that. He was rather the Creator of the universe.
 
A

Athan

Member
Ouroboros said:
Eh. I don't see how. Matter is what matter is. There's no single one biological perfection. The only thing that can be seen in the biological world is variety. The ability to adapt and change is its perfection.
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There are dynamics in this Universe that we still do not understand. Anything is possible until it's proven impossible.


Ouroboros said:
Why should I tell you that?

If God is matter, then it's possible that the world is God, then pantheism or panentheism or naturalism are all perfectly fine to explain our existence.
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I'll make this simple for you: God is a perfected being of flesh and bone.
 
Ouroboros

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Athan said:
There are dynamics in this Universe that we still do not understand. Anything is possible until it's proven impossible.
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Okay.

I'll make this simple for you: God is a perfected being of flesh and bone.
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Still doesn't make sense to me. But that's okay. You can believe whatever you want. :)
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Katzpur said:
I'm not sure if you're saying that's what you perceive Mormon doctrine to be, but if it is, you've kind of misunderstood what we believe.

We believe that Jesus Christ, like His Father, has always been "God." He was "God" before He was born; He was "God" while He was here on earth, and He continues to be "God" today. He shares the title of "God" with His Father, but is not the same being as His Father. I have never heard a Mormon say that He's "part of the universe," and don't expect to ever hear that. He was rather the Creator of the universe.
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That's what I understood from the Internets. I stand corrected. :)
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Athan said:
I'll make this simple for you: God is a perfected being of flesh and bone.
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I don't know of very many people (relative to Christianity as a whole) who believe this. I do, however. Hmmm... I wonder if this is a mere coincidence. :)
 
Ouroboros

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Katzpur said:
I don't know of very many people (relative to Christianity as a whole) who believe this. I do, however. Hmmm... I wonder if this is a mere coincidence. :)
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Do you mean "flesh and bone" in a literal sense? Or do you mean "flesh and bone" in a more figurative sense like "God exists"?
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Ouroboros said:
So where did God's bones come from? How were they formed? And how was God's flesh made?
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I have no idea and it really isn't something I give much thought to. At any rate, it has nothing to do with my salvation and it's a question I don't suppose anyone can do anything more than just speculate on.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thief said:
I thought it was written somewhere....God is spirit.
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Yes, it's written very clearly in the Bible that God is spirit. I don't believe that "God is spirit" means "God has no form." I believe that "God is spirit" means "God is a life force and not an inanimate object." Another way of putting it would be to say that being "spirit" is one of God's attributes. The Bible also says that He is "light" and "love." None of these things define God, in and of themselves. They merely tell us something about Him.

The Greek word "pneuma," which is translated in John 4:24 as "spirit" (i.e. "God is spirit") is can and is also translated as "life" or "breath." In the KJV, in Revelation 13:15, the word "pneuma" is translated as "life." Thus, it would also be correct (and probably less misleading) to say "God is life."

One final thought -- particularly for trinitarian Christians (which I am not): When the resurrected Christ first appeared to His Apostles after His resurrection, they were initially afraid because they thought they'd seen a spirit (in other words, a ghost). He told them that He had a body of flesh and bones and that if he were just a spirit, he wouldn't have flesh and bones. What trinitarians sort of manage to gloss over is the fact this... If God is spirit, and Jesus Christ had a body of flesh and bones, then how could He be God? The bottom line, to me, is the fact that a spirit can reside either within a physical body or independently of a physical body. If Jesus Christ is truly God and yet had a body of flesh and bones, "God is spirit" couldn't possibly mean that God is only spirit. Being spirit (or life) is just one of many of God's attributes.
 
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S

Silver Wolf

High Priest of Nothing
An entity existing both within and out of the universe, propagator of the soul, formless, beyond description.
As it is impossible to understand the Supreme God, especially in the decadent era of the modern age, I don't think one should concentrate too much on the matter. When you give God attributes and personality, he stops being God. It leads to sectarian violence, as well as theological fighting.
In my opinion, one should just worship God and meditate on Him, without worrying about having a clear view on him. That will come later.
 
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