Do you feel similarly about other non-supernaturalistic subject matters?
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How can you accept evolution and still have a spiritual reality, and/or a God faith
- Thread starter osgart
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CLee421
Bible believing-Face painting-Musical Momma
What is inaccurate?
At the risk of hijacking the post for a likely endless debate.....
CLee421
Bible believing-Face painting-Musical Momma
Someone started a new thread to "educate" me on science...and evolution...
I'll probably get to it tomorrow. I'm sure I'll share my views and be called ignorant there as well. Pop some popcorn - see ya there.
I now realize that this is not the thread for that. Talk.Origins or @Subduction Zone 's thread are much better fits.
Although really, I would rather not go there again. It is a settled matter already, and has been for over a century.
CLee421
Bible believing-Face painting-Musical Momma
You went there.
I was answering a question. I get called wrong but never with any basis.
Yep. Not here.
There is a basis. But it is a trivial one, and an unwelcome distraction from the parameters of this thread.
Jumi
Well-Known Member
Not at all. People who fight evolution are fighting windmills and trying to pull people in to do the same.
In my corner of Europe theists near universally accepted evolution with no problems at all. It was thanks to fundamentalist ideas from the English speaking world that made something a problem that wasn't. Both theists and atheists would laugh at the American debates over evolution, pi=3 and all kinds of moon landing hoax-theories. That was when membership in church was nearly universal. Now that we also have the fundies sawing the branches from under their religions, people are leaving the church in droves.
Jumi
Well-Known Member
exchemist
Veteran Member
Emphatically no.
As for why not, there is nothing special about evolution. It's just another well-supported theory of science, along with Newton's Laws, Plate Tectonics or the Kinetic Theory of Matter. Nobody seems to think these "totally remove God and spirit" from reality. The idea that evolution - somehow, unlike all the other theories of science - does this is absurd.
Some Christian sects find that treating Man as one of the animals - which evolution does of course - presents problems for their theology of the relationship between Man and God, that's all.
Rather than resolve this point by themselves, as most Christian denominations did a century ago, they have embarked on the Quixotic and futile enterprise of trying to attack the whole theory.
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exchemist
Veteran Member
That would be because natural science is the study of the natural, i.e. not the supernatural, world.
exchemist
Veteran Member
But we do see evolution take place before our eyes in many well-documented examples: Drug-resistant cancers and bacteria, changes in appearance of moths, ring species in which the actual process of a new species forming can be seen, etc. So there is plenty of evidence, if you bother to learn about it.
stvdv
Veteran Member
26 jun 2018 stvdv 013 02
It is not so much "there is no need to invoke God". I would say science have not the tools (yet) to "invoke God". When the scientist integrates spirituality, meditation then he has more to offer. Till then better stick to what he is good at.
The trick is: "Common Sense" before "Divine Sense". If science proves something "below the senses", but scripture declares differently, then you better read scripture again, because quite obviously there must have been translation error, misinterpretation etc [of course sometimes science makes a mistake, but nowadays they double check most stuff with their supercomputers, pretty fast]. Of course science should not make claims about God, because that is not within their scope of expertise [they only deal with stuff below the mind]. Stick with that.
Few big obstacles giving misunderstanding and irritation: a)Ego + b)Power/Money/Control + c)MisUnderstanding + d)Brainwashed
Just a few thoughts I got from this interesting post.
Let us be honest. Science is good at science but only "below the mind". God stuff is "above the mind". Mixing these gives astral mumbo jumbo IMO. Science beautifully explains evolution [on earth], a tiny bit of the cosmos is even explained.
It is not so much "there is no need to invoke God". I would say science have not the tools (yet) to "invoke God". When the scientist integrates spirituality, meditation then he has more to offer. Till then better stick to what he is good at.
Not necessarily. When the scientist is honest, and accept that he works below the mind, he has to admit that he can make no claims about God and spirit. So he can not remove them. He can say I remove them from the "worldview how I perceive it". But should add "spiritual masters have more view than I, so I can't claim anything here".
I would say: To get mutual respect between scientist and spiritualist, they both have to respect their fields of expertise. Scientists are blinded to not see God, because they don't meditate to explore the other realms [Plenty exceptions of well known scientists got their inventions in dream state]. Spiritualists are blinded by mis-interpretation of their scriptures and so called teachers who use religion to manipulate the people, just for money and control, not for truth and wisdom.
The trick is: "Common Sense" before "Divine Sense". If science proves something "below the senses", but scripture declares differently, then you better read scripture again, because quite obviously there must have been translation error, misinterpretation etc [of course sometimes science makes a mistake, but nowadays they double check most stuff with their supercomputers, pretty fast]. Of course science should not make claims about God, because that is not within their scope of expertise [they only deal with stuff below the mind]. Stick with that.
Few big obstacles giving misunderstanding and irritation: a)Ego + b)Power/Money/Control + c)MisUnderstanding + d)Brainwashed
Just a few thoughts I got from this interesting post.
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Mox
Dr Green Fingers
Astrophysics more than evolutionary theory, has pushed the God of the gaps to the brink of extinction.
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
Nope.
Evolution removes the need to explain how humans were created.
stvdv
Veteran Member
26 jun 2018 stvdv 013 06
But the question was not about humans, was it?
Just about God and spirituality
There is much more in this universe than humans
We like to think we are paramount, but are we? or is God?
But the question was not about humans, was it?
Just about God and spirituality
There is much more in this universe than humans
We like to think we are paramount, but are we? or is God?
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You've never heard of the Theory of Intelligent Falling?
"Things fall not because they are acted upon by some gravitational force, but because a higher intelligence, 'God' if you will, is pushing them down," said Gabriel Burdett, who holds degrees in education, applied Scripture, and physics from Oral Roberts University."
https://www.theonion.com/evangelical-scientists-refute-gravity-with-new-intellig-1819567984
My answer is no. It doesn't remove God or Spirit from reality. On the contrary, for me evolution is Spirit in motion creating everything you see, like the fingers of an artist shaping clay. The notion that God creating has to look like someone's interpretation of Genesis read like a child's story at bedtime, simply indicates a challenge with the readers mind, not the science.
The Theory of Evolution is more like the grown-up's reading of Genesis, which now understands the story's figures as metaphors, rather than facts. We can understand the Divine nature of Creation, while allowing it to be everything we observe and verify it to be in the sciences.
Audie
Veteran Member
I'd think it would for people who have one
rigid and sadly mistaken idea of what "god"
is.
If it god of the 6 day poof 'n flood
or no god, then there is no god. And
we find a lot of people cannot do it
any other way.
It did in the 19th century, when it removed two major props to belief:
First, that nature was so complex and occasionally so beautiful that the only explanation was a divine designer; and
Second, the complementary view that the biblical account of creation made more sense than any alternative.
But many branches of religion have digested the science and now regard evolution as a divine tool which God chose to effect the diversity of life.
(Were I a believer, I'd take the view that it was much less complicated, indeed much less silly, to think of evolution as always having done the divine will automatically, than to imagine God stepping in from time to time to tweak a gene here, a protein there &c.)
So you are saying Ken ham intelligent design folks are in fact biblical experts? Lol based on what evidence?