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How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

Colt

Well-Known Member
Not knowing doesn't mean non-existent.
It simply means not known.
Thats why Atheism is a kind of faith, from the finite position of not knowing everything they draw conclusions of final value.

"All religious philosophy, sooner or later, arrives at the concept of unified universe rule, of one God. Universe causes cannot be lower than universe effects. The source of the streams of universe life and of the cosmic mind must be above the levels of their manifestation. The human mind cannot be consistently explained in terms of the lower orders of existence. Man’s mind can be truly comprehended only by recognizing the reality of higher orders of thought and purposive will. Man as a moral being is inexplicable unless the reality of the Universal Father is acknowledged.

3:6.4 (53.2) The mechanistic philosopher professes to reject the idea of a universal and sovereign will, the very sovereign will whose activity in the elaboration of universe laws he so deeply reverences. What unintended homage the mechanist pays the law-Creator when he conceives such laws to be self-acting and self-explanatory!

3:6.5 (53.3) It is a great blunder to humanize God, except in the concept of the indwelling Thought Adjuster, but even that is not so stupid as completely to mechanize the idea of the First Great Source and Center."
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So are you saying I have to prove to you the reality of the complexity of a single living cell?
No. He is agreeing with you that a living cell is complex, and adding that that is not a reliable sign of intelligent design, since mindless physical process can generate great complexity as well. You seem to have failed to consider that possibility or to have rejected it without counterargument. And that's the logical fallacy to which I referred in an earlier post to you. You dropped a logical possibility from your list of possible explanations for that observed biological complexity. If you gave no reason for that, we couldn't say much more about your fallacy than that your conclusion is a non sequitur. It doesn't follow from the argument preceding it. All unsound arguments contain a non sequitur, which is what it means to say that any argument is unsound. It means the conclusion doesn't follow logically from the faulty argument preceding it.

When you add that you reject naturalistic answers because they just feel wrong, or you can't see how a naturalistic mechanism can possibly be the explanation, you are also committing an incredulity fallacy. And when you add a god as your explanation for the existence of complex cells, you are now committing a special pleading fallacy. You're excusing your god from the same analysis. Assuming a god that knows everything and can do anything is more complex than a single living cell, if cell needs an intelligent designer, so does that intelligent designer even more so.
No, I don't think that the literal story of Adam and Eve is part of a necessary minimal requirement to be Christian.
Assuming, of course that by "True Christian" you mean one who is sincere in belief.
Sincere in what belief? The central tenet of Christianity is that man is born into sin fit for perdition unless he is washed in the blood of the lamb, which means he believes that Christ died for his sins so that he might know everlasting life. Christianity teaches that this state man finds himself in is his own fault for his disobedience to God, which began with the first two human beings. Remove that last part, and what's left but a god that chooses to punish man due to no fault of his own?
Omniscient means All-Knowing, so everything would be known by an omniscient God, but that does not mean it was planned or intended
What it means in humanist ethics, which is also the basis for much Western law, is that combined with the ability to intervene, perfect knowledge of what will follow means responsibility for it. Even imperfect knowledge makes one responsible if he had the power to prevent an outcome with the twitch of a nose.

You're likely aware of a case in the American news now of a child who brought an unsecured gun to school from home and shot a teacher, whose parents have been criminally charged. Will the defense attorney argue that even though the parents knew (or should have known) what might occur and stood by without intervening shouldn't be held accountable because the child had free will and is thus responsible? This is an analogous argument to the theistic one. The parents will be held liable unless they escape on a technicality or jury nullification, because those are our Western values. We should not be surprised that believers don't want their tri-omni god who grants free will to creatures he created and set loose upon one another, but neither should we be surprised that unbelievers would hold this god to the same standards if they believed it existed.
what happens in this world is caused by humans
And what caused humanity? If it was a tri-omni god, it's responsible for the choices those humans make the way the parents in the example above are responsible for the child's choice to bring a gun to school and use it, even though, 'what happened in school was the caused by the child.' This is how humanist ethicists view this.
God's knowledge does not 'cause' humans to do anything. There is free will because the omnipotent, omniscient God gave us free will to choose and He did not make our choices for us.
Nor did the parents' knowledge that a gun was lying around the house cause the child to take it to school and shoot it. It doesn't matter from a liability (legal responsibility) perspective.
Discovering something is not what makes it exist. Something either exists or not.
That's a perfectly reasonable thing to say, and a concept (object permanence) that helps us understand and navigate our world, but quantum science has cast some doubt here. How do we know it existed before it entered consciousness? The argument is kind of like the light in the refrigerator. Every time we look into it, it's illuminated, so we can't blame primitives who have never seen a refrigerator before from thinking that it must be bright in there all of the time. Brightness permanence. Quantum science say the equivalent (as many but not all understand it) of saying that the light is only on when we look inside, that it's the act of looking that leads to illumination in the refrigerator. The primitives laugh at him.
if we haven't yet found a god, does that mean a god doesn't exist?
No, but it means we can ignore the possibility until we do, and from an empiricist's viewpoint, we should. We don't hypothesize the existence of anything until its existence is needed to explain an observation.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@We Never Know said: Here's a thought.... Everything we have discovered or know of.. Be it gold, diamonds, oil, pluto, mars, the milky way galaxy, DNA, evolution, atoms, quarks, etc etc.... All existed before we discovered them.
So if we haven't yet found a god, does that mean a god doesn't exist?


That is what I was supporting. Where are the errors in his post?
I have used the same argument myself.
Pluto existed before it was was discovered in 1930.
Thus it logically follows that God can exist before He is discovered.

Discovering something is not what makes it exist. Something either exists or not.
Wow! And that is after I explained to you.

Answer this question, can you quote the person that he responded to saying that God does not exist in this thread?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
And if he wanted to change even the least little aspect of life on Earth he could do so since he is all powerful. If he could not do that he would not be all powerful.
I don't get it? This creator makes people. He knows what they are going to do but doesn't like what they do? He tells what he wants them to do but doesn't force them to do it. So, most people don't do it. And this God then tells them that bad things are going to happen, because they refused to believe and do the things he told them to do. So, in the end God gets his way. People will love him and obey him. What was his point in making people?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Not knowing certainly doesn't mean existent.

Hence my phrasing in #278.
Plus, we kind of know when things are made up and not real. And we know that a lot of Gods have been nothing more than a made-up thing to control people or to explain things that otherwise couldn't be explained. So, until a god can be shown to be real, why believe and follow what people say about their god and what that god wants people to do?

Like the poor virgin waiting to be thrown into a volcano to appease the fire god. Or the person getting stoned to death, because they "worked" on god's special day of rest.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I don't get it? This creator makes people. He knows what they are going to do but doesn't like what they do? He tells what he wants them to do but doesn't force them to do it. So, most people don't do it. And this God then tells them that bad things are going to happen, because they refused to believe and do the things he told them to do. So, in the end God gets his way. People will love him and obey him. What was his point in making people?

We are discussing the logical implications of a God that is both omniscient and omnipotent. That is a common claim of believers. Not all believers since some of them can reason logically.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Pluto existed before it was was discovered in 1930.
Thus it logically follows that God can exist before He is discovered.
Cool. Present the logical through line that connects the discovery of Pluto to the possible existence of God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't get it? This creator makes people. He knows what they are going to do but doesn't like what they do? He tells what he wants them to do but doesn't force them to do it. So, most people don't do it.
What's so hard to understand about that? Most people don't do it but some people do it.
And this God then tells them that bad things are going to happen, because they refused to believe and do the things he told them to do. So, in the end God gets his way. People will love him and obey him.
Baha'is love and obey God not because God threatened them with 'bad things' that would happen if they didn't. The only bad things that will happen is that they won't get the reward they could have gotten. That is their own punishment, not something that God does to them.

He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings, p. 339
What was his point in making people?
According to Baha'u'llah, mankind was created out of God's love for us.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So, until a god can be shown to be real, why believe and follow what people say about their god and what that god wants people to do?
You don't have to believe in God, it's a choice. The signs of God are clearly manifest in this Day of God, but if you are waiting for the Essence of God to materialize on earth and be shown to be real, you will be waiting until hell freezes over.

“Say: Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Cool. Present the logical through line that connects the discovery of Pluto to the possible existence of God.
The connecting line is that both Pluto and God are discovered via evidence.
Pluto existed before an astronomer discovered evidence for Pluto.
It logically follows that it is possible for God to exist before atheists discover the evidence.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
The connecting line is that both Pluto and God are discovered via evidence.
Rejected. There has been no demonstration that God is discoverable via evidence.

This premise assumes that the type and quality of evidence for the existence of Pluto and God are analogous. The possibility of things like Pluto (big icy rocks in space) were empirically established prior to Pluto's discovery. There is no analogous established possibility of God in reality.

Pluto existed before an astronomer discovered evidence for Pluto.
Accepted,
It logically follows that it is possible for God to exist before atheists discover the evidence.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Rejected. There has been no demonstration that God is discoverable via evidence.
God is discoverable via evidence but you have to look at the evidence.
This premise assumes that the type and quality of evidence for the existence of Pluto and God are analogous.
I would never assume that because I'd have to be illogical to assume that. The type and quality of evidence for the existence of Pluto and God are completely different since God is not a material object that exists, like a planet in space, so we cannot use the same method to discover God.

Tombaugh's task was to systematically image the night sky in pairs of photographs, then examine each pair and determine whether any objects had shifted position. Using a blink comparator, he rapidly shifted back and forth between views of each of the plates to create the illusion of movement of any objects that had changed position or appearance between photographs. On February 18, 1930, after nearly a year of searching, Tombaugh discovered a possible moving object on photographic plates taken on January 23 and 29. A lesser-quality photograph taken on January 21 helped confirm the movement.[21] After the observatory obtained further confirmatory photographs, news of the discovery was telegraphed to the Harvard College Observatory on March 13, 1930.[17]
The possibility of things like Pluto (big icy rocks in space) were empirically established prior to Pluto's discovery. There is no analogous established possibility of God in reality.
You are correct. There is nothing empirically established for God as for Pluto, and if that is what you are waiting for you might as well cash in your chips.

God can only be known through His Manifestation, what I refer to as a Messenger of God.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
We are discussing the logical implications of a God that is both omniscient and omnipotent. That is a common claim of believers. Not all believers since some of them can reason logically.
Well, I agree with you. What I don't agree with is the religious people's claim that their god could do it, but he doesn't want to because he wants people to come to him on their own free will... Because, assuming he is real, he made people so messed up that they are never going to be able to be good enough.

And, ironically, that's what evangelical Christians tell me... that their god had to send Jesus, because people, on their own, could never be perfect enough to deserve and earn their way to heaven. So, what's god's point if nothing is going to change until he changes it. Supposedly by sending Jesus back to destroy all the evil people and satan.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
And this God then tells them that bad things are going to happen, because they refused to believe and do the things he told them to do.
For that one Baha'i... Read Revelation, lot's of bad stuff coming. Then read your own writings...

Baha’u’llah foresees that humanity’s failure to recognize and accept him—all the more tragic because his advent had been anticipated for so many centuries— will lead to grave and prolonged sufferings. He exhorts the peoples of the world to heed his call or face God’s judgment:​
The Baha’i writings explain that there will be three stages leading to the new divine civilization. First will be a period of great turmoil and suffering, which we are now witnessing. Then will come the Lesser Peace, which is the political unity of nations. After that will come the Most Great Peace.​
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
God is discoverable via evidence but you have to look at the evidence.
Is that all one must do? Or must one alse assume that what you refer to as "the evidence" is true prior to looking at it?

I would never assume that because I'd have to be illogical to assume that.
The premise presumes that, whether or not you do, personally. If the premise does not presume that then the premised if a disanalogy. If, as you say, the methodologies are entirely different then there can be no correlation between the discovery of Pluto, and any supposeddiscovery of your god.

You are correct. There is nothing empirically established for God as for Pluto, and if that is what you are waiting for you might as well cash in your chips.
I am not waiting for any such thing. I am pointing out why your presented argument is unsound.

God can only be known through His Manifestation, what I refer to as a Messenger of God.
That is just your belief. No support presented.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Is that all one must do? Or must one alse assume that what you refer to as "the evidence" is true prior to looking at it?
No, of course not. Nobody should assume that the evidence is true prior to looking at it.
The premise presumes that, whether or not you do, personally. If the premise does not presume that then the premised if a disanalogy. If, as you say, the methodologies are entirely different then there can be no correlation between the discovery of Pluto, and any supposed discovery of your god.
The only correlation is that both Pluto and God were discovered via evidence.
I am not waiting for any such thing. I am pointing out why your presented argument is unsound.
I do not have an argument, so I cannot have an unsound argument.
That is just your belief. No support presented.
Of course it is only my belief. One has to look at the evidence in order to know if it is supported.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well, I agree with you. What I don't agree with is the religious people's claim that their god could do it, but he doesn't want to because he wants people to come to him on their own free will... Because, assuming he is real, he made people so messed up that they are never going to be able to be good enough.

And, ironically, that's what evangelical Christians tell me... that their god had to send Jesus, because people, on their own, could never be perfect enough to deserve and earn their way to heaven. So, what's god's point if nothing is going to change until he changes it. Supposedly by sending Jesus back to destroy all the evil people and satan.
Yes, one cannot have a moral God that is omnipotent and omniscient. The person that I was having a discussion with was a Baha'i, but the claims would probably be the same for the followers of most Abrahamic religions. I cannot say if Hindu's or others have that belief.
 
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