How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[Orbit]

Let me put it to you this way, without rancor. I don't believe a word that comes out of your mouth. Or the sarge's mouth. I want to say that many of the posts here seem to be coming from pathetic individuals. I have an idea, ask @Subduction Zone and a few others what he thinks about your ideas to contact the spirit world. I mean it would seem that your dead living husband would be able to do more than turning the TV off and on. Anyway...

How is that a productive post? And your rancor comes through loud and clear.

 

[Trailblazer]

Might as well create us with the personality that we will develop in the end.

If God did that there would be no purpose of living our life on earth, which is to develop our personality.
If God did that then we would not be responsible for the personality we ended up with.
If God created us with a personality we would be like God's robots, not our own person.

 

[YoursTrue]

Baha'is believe that this God of theirs sent Moses, then Jesus, then Muhammad then the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Does he believe that is true? Because that's what TB "knows" is true... or "believes" is true.

I personally don't believe that is true. So, I ask Baha'is questions to try and get them to prove that what they believe is true. And they can't. Why? Because there is no proof, only evidence. Yes, and there's just as much evidence against the Baha'i Faith as there is for it. So, what does that prove? Nothing. It might be true it might not.

And it seems they contradicted one another. Why shouldn't a Baha'i here ask Bahaullah what he thinks. One tv on two tv off.

 

[Orbit]

If God did that there would be no purpose of living our life on earth, which is to develop our personality.
If God did that then we would not be responsible for the personality we ended up with.
If God created us with a personality we would be like God's robots, not our own person.

But isn't that all true in the end, especially the third one?

 

[Trailblazer]

Sarge has more communication than you do, don't you think so? Maybe it's like a card game...win some, lose some.

Who's sarge?
Never mind, I figured it out.

 

[ppp]

If God did that there would be no purpose of living our life on earth, which is to develop our personality.
If God did that then we would not be responsible for the personality we ended up with.
If God created us with a personality we would be like God's robots, not our own person.

There is no functional difference

 

[YoursTrue]

How is that a productive post? And your rancor comes through loud and clear.

Why not look at the question and see if you can answer it.

 

[YoursTrue]

How is that a productive post? And your rancor comes through loud and clear.

Please...best to ask someone who doesn't believe in God.

 

[Trailblazer]

But isn't that all true in the end, especially the third one?

No, none of it is true in the end, especially not the third one.

 

[Orbit]

No, none of it is true in the end, especially not the third one.

The logical extension of your thought is that there is no free will in any meaningful way; that life is an empty exercise, a performance for a God who knows already how it will turn out. I don't get what the point is from that perspective.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Now is when I am going to start disagreeing with you. A person is born with a hereditary predisposition and after they are born their personality develops over the course of their lifetime. Personality is influenced by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, education, adult experiences, and life circumstances.

If God made a person's personality at the onset so that person never raped or did anything bad then God would be creating mere robots.
It is our free will choices combined with our life experiences that we cannot control that make us who we are.

So what? You are ignoring points that you already acknowledged. God knew ahead of time what every person would be like. He knew ahead of time exactly what actions that they would take. This was already acknowledged. If God had wanted to change anything he could have. You acknowledged this too. And "free will" is not an excuse. It cannot exist with a God that is omniscient and omnipotent. For free will to exist you have to either limit Gods omnipotence, which would mean that he is not omnipotent. Or limit his omniscience, which would not mean that he was not omniscient, and probably both.

This does not "refute God". It only refutes an omnipotent omniscient God.

 

[YoursTrue]

The logical extension of your thought is that there is no free will in any meaningful way; that life is an empty exercise, a performance for a God who knows already how it will turn out. I don't get what the point is from that perspective.

I doubt it but I hope TB can answer.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The point of letting us choose is so we can thereby develop our personality. God knows how that will proceed, but God does not influence our choices. God is like a bystander watching our every move, although He knows what moves we will make.

Fate and predestination is whole different subject. Some things that happen to us we cannot choose and those are our fate. God is all-knowiwng so God knows what is written on the Tablet of Fate, which is a combination of what we chose throughout life that determined our fate as well as what we did not choose, things that happened to us that were beyond our control, many of which were the result of other peoples' choices that affected us.

You cannot have it both ways. Free will cannot exist with an omnipotent omniscient God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let me put it to you this way, without rancor. I don't believe a word that comes out of your mouth. Or the sarge's mouth. I want to say that many of the posts here seem to be coming from pathetic individuals. I have an idea, ask @Subduction Zone and a few others what he thinks about your ideas to contact the spirit world. I mean it would seem that your dead living husband would be able to do more than turning the TV off and on. Anyway...

Why are you bringing this up on this thread? It is not related to what we are discussing.
Is this just your way to take a dig at me and my friend @Sgt. Pepper?

Why does it bother you if we believe in contacting the spiritual world? This has absolutely NO bearing upon my Baha'i beliefs since it is not a teaching of the Baha'i Faith that we should be trying to contact the spiritual world.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thee is no causal relationship between what God knows we will choose to do and what we will choose to do.
God's knowledge does not cause anything to happen, it is an attribute of God.

You already acknowledge that there is such a relationship. You had no problem when it was Presidents. But you had a big problem when it involved moral issues.

 

[Trailblazer]

So? What has that got to do with what I said. You are arguing against your expectations. Nothing to do with me.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

So, if God were an ignorant buffon, then everything would be exactly as it is now?

Yes.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no functional difference

I don't know what you mean by functional difference.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If God did that there would be no purpose of living our life on earth, which is to develop our personality.
If God did that then we would not be responsible for the personality we ended up with.
If God created us with a personality we would be like God's robots, not our own person.

Perhaps your basic assumptions are wrong. Have you considered that?

 

[Trailblazer]

The logical extension of your thought is that there is no free will in any meaningful way; that life is an empty exercise, a performance for a God who knows already how it will turn out. I don't get what the point is from that perspective.

That is not the logical extension of my thought. I believe we have free will to make moral choices and limited free will to make other choices.
The fact that God has fore-knowledge so He knows how it will turn out does not cause the actions of men.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150​

 

[We Never Know]

How is the TM not a clue that I am using the term tongue in cheek?

Oh! So you are just purposely trying to stir people up. Got it. With 56 pages of replies I would say you're doing a good job lol.