How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[Eli G]

That is trash talk, but has come to be expected from you.

Your post is a personal attack and it is offensive.
I wonder how nobody sees this kind of things happening here ...

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your post is a personal attack and it is offensive.
I wonder how nobody sees this kind of things happening here ...

Your post was at least as bad. I can see that he stepped over the line. Can you see that you stepped over the line first?


I read it again in full context. Now it does not look as if @lukethethird did anything wrong.

 

[Eli G]

I am banning this forum out of my time during one month.
Get over it.
Bye

 

[CG Didymus]

I really don’t expect non-Christians to believe the biblical accounts. I didn’t until I got to the point of realizing I needed a Savior. Once born again to new life in Christ my understanding of the scriptures and all of life changed. As the old hymn says,
“I was blind, but now I see”.
I guess what’s discouraging is that non-believers won’t even admit to the obvious, basic truth revealed in the scriptures, that all are sinners in need of a Savior. Rather than sincerely dealing with that, endless time is spent in diverting arguments or excuses to deny God.

Lots of us have been there. We believed, then one day... just couldn't. And that's all I'm saying. Without believing all of it, I couldn't keep believing those basic beliefs about Jesus being the savior either.

Now I'd imagine there many people that do believe in Jesus but, inside, they don't believe the young Earth and flood stuff. And that's the question... Are they really true believers? But then you've got the same problem between Protestant Christians compared to Catholic Christians. Or those that don't believe in the gifts of the spirit like the full-gospel Pentecostals.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am banning this forum out of my time during one month.
Get over it.
Bye

Oh noes!!! Whatever will we do?

 

[CG Didymus]

There is also a story of a talking donkey and a man who survived three days inside the belly of a big fish.

My favorite is still this....

Exodus 7:8 Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 9 “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Show a miracle for yourselves,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and cast it before Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.’ ” 10 So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the Lord commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.​

​

11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the [a]sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their [b]enchantments. 12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods. 13 And Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.​

Second is Elijah flying off in a fiery chariot. It's amazing that I actually believed that these things really happened. But, as a kid, I was taught to believe by people I trusted. Now I don't trust any religious person that comes up with these kinds of stories and requires me to believe them, literally, to be part of their religion.

But those two really happened.

Yeah, that's how it goes. One religion says, "Oh, those things that they believe? Those things aren't true. Our stuff, though, that did happen and is true. And we know it's true because our Scriptures say so."

 

[Trailblazer]

Like which Christians? Fake-Christians on internet?
There are a lot of fakers posing as independent Christians but they are just deceiving people ...
Otherwise, who are you talking about? A Christian who does not believe Jesus rose from the dead? Really?

A quarter of people who describe themselves as Christians in Great Britain do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus, a survey commissioned by the BBC suggests.

Resurrection did not happen, say quarter of Christians

8% of non-religious people think Jesus did rise from the dead, suggests a survey.

www.bbc.com

Two-thirds of Americans (66%) believe that Jesus Christ’s physical resurrection as described in the Bible is “completely accurate,” as Lifeway Research’s 2020 State of Theology study explains.

20% of U.S. adults don’t believe in the resurrection while 14% are unsure of their belief on this matter.

More Americans Believe in Christ's Resurrection than Britons do

Two-thirds of Americans (66%) believe that Jesus Christ’s physical resurrection as described in the Bible is “completely accurate."

www.gcrr.org

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is why Christians believe that the bodily resurrection of Jesus matters, in one sentence.

Without a belief in the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ, our belief and hope in the future resurrection of our bodies would have no ground of assurance.

Does the Bodily Resurrection of Christ Matter? | Stone Oak Bible Church

Does it matter if Jesus actually rose? Can I be a Christian and not believe that Jesus actually rose from the dead? Does it matter if I do not believe that Christ’s resurrection was bodily? What difference does it make if Jesus’ body rose or not? If Jesus did not literally rise from the dead,

stoneoakbible.com

However, the belief that physical bodies will rise from the grave after they have been buried (the way that Christians believe that Jesus rose from the grave - physically) is completely contradicted by what the Bible actually says.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

 

[ppp]

20% of U.S. adults don’t believe in the resurrection while 14% are unsure of their belief on this matter.
https://www.gcrr.org/post/more-americans-believe-in-christ-s-resurrection-than-britons

As 30% of US adults are something not-Christian, I would expect that number to be higher. That would mean that at least 10% of the people who are non-Chistian believe in the resurrection. Weird

 

[InChrist]

Lots of us have been there. We believed, then one day... just couldn't. And that's all I'm saying. Without believing all of it, I couldn't keep believing those basic beliefs about Jesus being the savior either.

Now I'd imagine there many people that do believe in Jesus but, inside, they don't believe the young Earth and flood stuff. And that's the question... Are they really true believers? But then you've got the same problem between Protestant Christians compared to Catholic Christians. Or those that don't believe in the gifts of the spirit like the full-gospel Pentecostals.

Well, I’d say there’s a difference between believing simply because you’re taught to believe something, in this case the Bible, or in knowing Jesus in a real way and having a living, personal relationship with Him. I wasn’t taught to believe in Jesus and hardly knew any Bible stories. I didn’t get saved or even understand who Jesus really was until in my 30’s. Now that I know Him and my life has been transformed, there’s no way I could ever doubt Him or His word. As Peter said, “Where would I go Lord, You have the words of eternal life?”

I’m not going to say who is a true believer. God knows those who belong to Jesus and one’s new life in Christ is an ongoing process, not an instantaneous understanding of all biblical or spiritual truths.

 

[InChrist]

Books say a lot of of things that lack credibility. That is just one of them..

Are you saying that you have never sinned or know people who are sinless? If not, then the Bible is accurate in pointing out the reality that everyone does sin, therefore credible in that regard.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, I’d say there’s a difference between believing simply because you’re taught to believe something, in this case the Bible, or in knowing Jesus in a real way and having a living, personal relationship with Him. I wasn’t taught to believe in Jesus and hardly knew any Bible stories. I didn’t get saved or even understood who Jesus really was until in my 30’s. Now that I know Him and my life has been transformed, there’s no way I could ever doubt Him or His word. As Peter said, “Where would I go Lord, You have the words of eternal life?”

I’m not going to say who is a true believer. God knows those who belong to Jesus and one’s new life in Christ is an ongoing process, not an instantaneous understanding of all biblical or spiritual truths.

That just looks like belief. You may have a strong belief, but it does not appear that you "know" Jesus. Knowledge is demonstrable and I have never met a Christian that could show that they "knew" Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

As 30% of US adults are something not-Christian, I would expect that number to be higher. That would mean that at least 10% of the people who are non-Chistian believe in the resurrection. Weird

I thought the same thing. Believe it or not, I read elsewhere that there are Americans who are not Christians yet they believe in the resurrection.
Talk about odd. But this is how brainwashing works.

 

[InChrist]

All Christians do that. Whether on purpose or via convoluted rationalization. If one is a serious believer the biggest mistake is to try to read the Bible literally. If one is honest that only leads to atheism. If one accepts the lessons of the Bible then one may be able to maintain one's faith and still reason rationally.

I don’t see it that way.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don’t see it that way.

Of course. The problem is that you cannot show that your "knowledge" is any better than that of other Christians that claim the same and yet have very different beliefs. As the saying goes, you can't all be right, but you can all be wrong.

Sorry, but knowledge is demonstrable. Mere belief is not.

 

[ppp]

Are you saying that you have never sinned or know people who are sinless?

I have no evidence that anyone has ever sinned. Not me. Nor anyone else. The word "sin" means an offense against a god. Without a god, the term is meaningless. I would further argue that the term "sin" has only a coincidental association with morality. The two are not the same thing.

 

[ppp]

I thought the same thing. Believe it or not, I read elsewhere that there are Americans who are not Christians yet they believe in the resurrection.
Talk about odd. But this is how brainwashing works.

I know that there are. I have met them. I was just surprised at the numbers. I suspect (with only anecdotal evidence) that it is because Christainity is normative and agressive in the US, and that there is a high correlation to negative consequences for not believing.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I have no evidence that anyone has ever sinned. Not me. Nor anyone else. The word "sin" means an offense against a god. Without a god, the term in meaningless. I would further argue that the term "sin" has only a coincidental association with morality. The two are not the same thing.

I think that the comedian Penn Jillette was spot on when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want?" And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine." In my opinion, a person is far better off not allowing the fearmongering threat of hell or the hollow promise of heaven to rule their life and dictate their behavior. I consider the belief in sinning against the biblical God (who may or may not even exist) to be self-defeating and detrimental to a person's mental health. I've witnessed it happen to others, and it also happened to me. I don't want to derail the thread with a lengthy explanation, so I'll post a link to a previous post in which I explained why my belief in God was emotionally detrimental to me and why I decided to abandon it (read it here).

 

[ppp]

I don’t see it that way.

That is what happened with me. I decided that I had been lax and needed to become more serious and invested in my faith (National Baptist). So I buckled down, studied the Bible, attended VBS and Bible Study, discussed with my fellow church members and theologians, and read the works of the prominent apologists of the time. And I prayed a lot. I loved it. And the more I learned the further I was driven into non-belief. Until I got to the point where it was clear that there is no reason to be convinced that anyone has a good reason, or is capable of having a good reason, to come to the conclusion that God exists.

 

[Estro Felino]

For those of you who don't take the story of the Fall literally. Adam, Eve, Tree, Serpent, etc, how do you envision the Fall of Man happening? And if it didn't happen, what use is Jesus?

Like my priest who taught me Catechism?
He taught us kids that Adam and Eve is just an allegory.
It's not the scientific truth.

Yes, he was a Christian, and if you ask me, a very good, holy priest.

 

[InChrist]

Why do you think that one has to go over the whole Earth to know that the stories in the Bible have been refuted. We do not need to know that. There are enough obvious contradictions to the claims that we do not need any more. if one wants to claim that the Bible is accurate the burden of proof is upon believers and they do not seem to have any evidence.

As to your claims let's go over them.

!. No that is just an argument from ignorance on your part. Yes, it is complex, but that does not mean that it cannot be understood. It only means that you cannot understand it. Do you not see you your error?

2. Again no, Nothing points to an intelligent designer. You, like all creationists, do not understand the concept of evidence and you need to learn what is and what is not evidence. Handwaving is not a valid argument.

3. Nope, once again, they only appear to be fine tuned to the ignorant. You need more than appearances. You would need to prove that it is fine tuned and the more we learn the clearer it is that it is not fine tuned.

4. And those accounts often contradict each other on rather important points. They were also edited. You simply are unaware of the history of the Bible. When early church fathers decided what gospels to keep and which ones to throw away that is an editing process. It occurred in the fourth century. There were on the order of 40 gospels and they narrowed it down to 4. That is a lot of editing.

You didn’t go over the points with any real information. All you basically said was…No, No, and No.
I am aware of Bible history. There are no contradictions with regard to foundation teachings. It was not the church fathers who decided the books of the Bible. The teachings of Christ, the letters of Paul and the other Apostles, and Gospels were already being circulated amongst the early believers/churches. Later in the fourth century the church fathers just officially recognized what was already being used as biblical scriptures. Anything that was contrary or deviated from the already accepted orthodox, foundational teachings were not included.