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How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?
- Thread starter ppp
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- fall naked bodz! soteriology
Ella S.
Well-Known Member
Dionysus, Osiris, Inanna, and Marzanna.What "savior story" which predate "the savior story of Jesus" do you know?
Why they are not believable? What's your criteria to determine that in those cases?
In what sense are those stories comparable to "the savior story of Jesus"?
Any evidence of your claims?
Also, arguably, Rama, Enki, Lugh, and Soteria, to some degree.
Ella S.
Well-Known Member
Many people feel the same way about Jesus.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sorry I missed your thread but it is too hot here right now for me to write a long answer, so maybe later...
Meanwhile, my question to you is: Why can't you be a true Christian UNLESS you take the Eden story literally?
The significance of Jesus is NOT that He died for our sins, that is just a Christian doctrine. Did Jesus ever say that He died for the sins that were committed by Adam and Eve? NO.
That is why we do not need the fall of Adam and Eve in order for Jesus to be important to mankind. There is no connection whatsoever except for the connection that was made with Christian dogma.
The importance of Jesus to mankind was His teachings, not His death on the cross. The death on the cross was mostly symbolic for sacrifice of self.
Fair.
...BUT films about Jesus have been finished and the vast majority of the world's population has seen them.
I was very impressed with the Mel Gibson's one.
For Bahais, was Jesus' killing also metaphorical?
ppp
Well-Known Member
Nothing is stopping you from answering (as many have done) but the question is more directed to the progressive Christians out there who (wisely IMO) do not take all the claims of the Bible as necessary literal events. Specifically, how do they reconcile the need for Salvation from a "Fall of Man" that is a non-literal event.
I don't see why you couldn't be. The "TM" was an indicator that I do not take the term True Christian seriously.
That is according to you and your religion. Others place significance differently than you do.
ppp
Well-Known Member
The majority of the world's population? More than 4 billion people? Millions of people, sure. But not even hundreds of millions would be a reasonable estimate. "Gone with the Wind," "Avatar," and "Titanic" are the most watched movies in history and they have not reached 2 billion people....BUT films about Jesus have been finished and the vast majority of the world's population has seen them.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Bahais interpretation of Jesus is just similar to Muslims interpretation of Jesus: just another prophet, but not the one they respect the most.
Both groups consider Jesus like just another step to their own leader ... Mormons go the same direction.
The truth is none of their ultimate prophets have done anything similar to what Jesus did. Nobody saw them resurrected, or resurrecting others, or giving sight to those blind from birth, etc. ... and that is a very relevant and transcendental diference.
Both groups consider Jesus like just another step to their own leader ... Mormons go the same direction.
The truth is none of their ultimate prophets have done anything similar to what Jesus did. Nobody saw them resurrected, or resurrecting others, or giving sight to those blind from birth, etc. ... and that is a very relevant and transcendental diference.
lukethethird
unknown member
Those stories aren't to be read literally. Resurrections don't happen in reality.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, absolutely not. Baha'is believe that Jesus was crucified and thereby the souls of all sinners were sanctified.
The difference between Bahais and Christians is that we don't believe that sin came into the world because of the 'one sin' of Adam and Eve, and we believe the story was allegorical.
The Baha'i belief about the significance of Jesus' mission on earth and the cross sacrifice can be summed up in what Baha'u'llah wrote about Jesus.
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
The wise Solomon said:
Ecl. 1:9 What has been is what will be,
And what has been done will be done again;
There is nothing new under the sun.
My personal understanding is the following: although it has been written since the fall of man that a human would be an eternal King and would free humanity with his teaching and his dominion of peace, the invisible enemy of the sourse of that hope (the Creator) has tried to emulate that promise that he knew very well, since he was present when it occurred at the beginning of the fall that he himself caused the first couple (Gen. 3:15) .
An intelligent person knows how to distinguish between the true thing and the defective copies.
Ecl. 1:9 What has been is what will be,
And what has been done will be done again;
There is nothing new under the sun.
My personal understanding is the following: although it has been written since the fall of man that a human would be an eternal King and would free humanity with his teaching and his dominion of peace, the invisible enemy of the sourse of that hope (the Creator) has tried to emulate that promise that he knew very well, since he was present when it occurred at the beginning of the fall that he himself caused the first couple (Gen. 3:15) .
An intelligent person knows how to distinguish between the true thing and the defective copies.
If I did not believe in the reality of the resurrection, I would not be a Christian, but another you.
lukethethird
unknown member
What does religious belief have to do with reality?
That's your view of reality ... People used to have diferent and better perspectives many times.
The short ones don't see far ... sometimes they don't even see what their wife is doing when she goes to her job.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Actually, that is not true, since there are many Christians who do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1
They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.
Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.
In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events.
(For some reason the link to that page did not work, but I got this off of the Religious Tolerance website several years ago)
It is more correct to say that if you did not believe in the reality of the cross sacrifice, you would not be a Christian.
The importance of Jesus' mission on earth was His teachings and cross sacrifice, the resurrection was an add-on, a story men wrote.
Last but certainly not least, Jesus came to bear witness unto the truth about God. That might even be the most important thing Jesus came for.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
lukethethird
unknown member
That is trash talk, but has come to be expected from you.That's your view of reality ... People used to have diferent and better perspectives many times.
The short ones don't see far ... sometimes they don't even see what their wife is doing when she goes to her job.
Like which Christians? Fake-Christians on internet?
There are a lot of fakers posing as independent Christians but they are just deceiving people ...
Otherwise, who are you talking about? A Christian who does not believe Jesus rose from the dead? Really?