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How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

F1fan

Veteran Member
IMO Hillary lost because she is female.
If it was because she was female why did she ever lead in the polls?

She won the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes. And only lost in 4 swing states by 71,000 votes, which is where our elections are won and lost these days. She had leads all the way through the election cycle and was considered a slam dunk. My assessment is that it was successful disinformation against Clinton, with the Comey announcement of a reopened investigation 11 days before the election that was the nail in her coffin.

Of course Trump lost in 2020 by 7 million popular votes, and by 42,000 votes in 4 swing states, mostly due to his fumbling of the pandemic and the first impeachment. Oddly Jan 6, and Trump's four indictments, don't seem to be a problem for conservative voters. The recent polling shows a Trump and Biden rematch as fairly close.

Is Biden's age age really a problem for conservatives? Not when Trump is only 2 years younger. Is a woman of color really a problem? Not when Nikki Haley is gaining in popularity.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
If it was because she was female why did she ever lead in the polls?

She won the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes. And only lost in 4 swing states by 71,000 votes, which is where our elections are won and lost these days. She had leads all the way through the election cycle and was considered a slam dunk. My assessment is that it was successful disinformation against Clinton, with the Comey announcement of a reopened investigation 11 days before the election that was the nail in her coffin.

Of course Trump lost in 2020 by 7 million popular votes, and by 42,000 votes in 4 swing states, mostly due to his fumbling of the pandemic and the first impeachment. Oddly Jan 6, and Trump's four indictments, don't seem to be a problem for conservative voters. The recent polling shows a Trump and Biden rematch as fairly close.

Is Biden's age age really a problem for conservatives? Not when Trump is only 2 years younger. Is a woman of color really a problem? Not when Nikki Haley is gaining in popularity.
From over here it's not Bidens age but that he is a
doddering has been who makes things up
and forgers others in roughly equal measure.

Get someone serious in the white house!!!
 

We Never Know

No Slack
If it was because she was female why did she ever lead in the polls?

She won the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes. And only lost in 4 swing states by 71,000 votes, which is where our elections are won and lost these days. She had leads all the way through the election cycle and was considered a slam dunk. My assessment is that it was successful disinformation against Clinton, with the Comey announcement of a reopened investigation 11 days before the election that was the nail in her coffin.

Of course Trump lost in 2020 by 7 million popular votes, and by 42,000 votes in 4 swing states, mostly due to his fumbling of the pandemic and the first impeachment. Oddly Jan 6, and Trump's four indictments, don't seem to be a problem for conservative voters. The recent polling shows a Trump and Biden rematch as fairly close.

Is Biden's age age really a problem for conservatives? Not when Trump is only 2 years younger. Is a woman of color really a problem? Not when Nikki Haley is gaining in popularity.
Color never crossed my mind. Even in todays world women aren't given credit due or treated equally.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
If it was because she was female why did she ever lead in the polls?

She won the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes. And only lost in 4 swing states by 71,000 votes, which is where our elections are won and lost these days. She had leads all the way through the election cycle and was considered a slam dunk. My assessment is that it was successful disinformation against Clinton, with the Comey announcement of a reopened investigation 11 days before the election that was the nail in her coffin.

Of course Trump lost in 2020 by 7 million popular votes, and by 42,000 votes in 4 swing states, mostly due to his fumbling of the pandemic and the first impeachment. Oddly Jan 6, and Trump's four indictments, don't seem to be a problem for conservative voters. The recent polling shows a Trump and Biden rematch as fairly close.

Is Biden's age age really a problem for conservatives? Not when Trump is only 2 years younger. Is a woman of color really a problem? Not when Nikki Haley is gaining in popularity.

Take Harris for example. As for a I can remember back she has been the least seen, least talked about, least in the news, least pretty much everything for a VP.

Is that because she isn't doing her job or because she is being overlooked(possibly because of being female)
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Take Harris for example. As for a I can remember back she has been the least seen, least talked about, least in the news, least pretty much everything for a VP.

Is that because she isn't doing her job or because she is being overlooked(possibly because of being female)
The media I have seen of her has been doing quite a bit of activism for women and minorities. I am not surprized that she isn't in the news more, as 1. she isn't embroiled in her own scandal (or even a manufactured scandal as Comer and Jordan have created about the "Biden crime family" nonsense). 2. The many indictments of trump and his co-conspirators has sucked up the media attention.

Meanwhile Biden/Harris focus on managing the federal government and national affairs, whether they get credit for their accomplishments or not.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
IMO Hillary lost because she is female.
Funny thing is though, she actually won the election by 2.9 million votes. The only reason Trump was given the presidency was because of an outdated, and now pointless electoral college vote which gets exploited by those who get to use to to bypass the actual majority of the vote.

So technically Hillary the female, did in fact win over that disgraceful man who is now facing potential life sentences in prison for his crimes against the American public while he defiled that respected seat in the White House.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Funny thing is though, she actually won the election by 2.9 million votes. The only reason Trump was given the presidency was because of an outdated, and now pointless electoral college vote which gets exploited by those who get to use to to bypass the actual majority of the vote.

So technically Hillary the female, did in fact win over that disgraceful man who is now facing potential life sentences in prison for his crimes against the American public while he defiled that respected seat in the White House.

"outdated, and now pointless electoral college"

Yep full of old people with old ways.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Take Harris for example. As for a I can remember back she has been the least seen, least talked about, least in the news, least pretty much everything for a VP.

Is that because she isn't doing her job or because she is being overlooked(possibly because of being female)
The pro- partisans do best not covering that idiot
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"outdated, and now pointless electoral college"

Yep full of old people with old ways.
Yes, it makes no sense to continue this in a day and age with instance communication and electric lights available to us now. It needs to be done away with.

Of course that would mean Republican presidential candidates would have to actually have good ideas and be voted in by the majority of the people to win the election. But is that such a bad thing? Having the best interests of the whole nation as a platform?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So, every president who runs for a second term is "selfish"?
Old people often overestimate their own abilities. Biden right now is a successful President because unlike Trump he listens to and usually heeds the experts that he chose to help him. As long as he does that he should remain a competent President. But I am worried about his age and what could happen to him at any moment. There comes a time when a person should be able to ask themselves "How would I do in a time of emergency?" Or even worse yet "What if dementia hits me suddenly?" He is gambling a bit with the country. He could easily be productive for another ten years, or he could die as suddenly as Jimmy Buffet:coldsweat:
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
From over here it's not Bidens age but that he is a
doddering has been who makes things up
and forgers others in roughly equal measure.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to exactly.
Get someone serious in the white house!!!
Well Biden has been serious and doing quite a good job despite republicans having a minor majority in the House. It’s as much Biden’s experience and savvy as it is republican incompetence that has led to him doing quite a bit for the USA.

Notice he is working to get a Medicaid drug deal done while Republicans are sabotaging it. My money is on Biden.

Another success is how he got the student loans fixed that were supposed to go to zero balance after 20 years. Many were still paying despite the rule. It is now fixed and many borrowers have zero balance.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
I am aware of the quote you are excerpting:

When you say that the statement is hateful, do you mean that it is full of hatred, or that the statement is deserving of hate? If the former, then I have to ask, do you only speak out against things against which you are "full of hate"?
I'm sure you can find statements that are more or less "full of hate". The quote from Nobelist Stephen Weinberg starts with calling religion an insult, so it's already starting off dealing in the world of insults. It also speaks in absolute. He doesn't call out an example, he blanket labels "religion". In other words, he sterotypes. And he places it in extreme: "Religion is an insult to human dignity." Now I can understand that you might think he's trying to say something profound by exaggeration. okay, possible. But it strikes me that this could really just be coming from a place of hate. I suspect that Nobelist Stephen Weinberg hates religion. Of course Nobelist Stephen Weinberg is entitled to his opinion and I don't have to agree with him.

And their judgment is baseless. I don't care what people think is true when it is dogma, and they can't defend themselves. They should know better, yet they don't.
I thought you said that you don't believe in God. That is a basis upon which a person might consider your soul to be in peril despite you not caring about it.
Sure they can believe what they want, I'm not condemning them to hell for their beliefs, that's what they do.
Are they condemning you to hell or are they concerned for your well being?
They don't have facts, so they have no basis to claim anything about me. Yet they do anyway despite the unethical nature of it. They should know better. Their religion has not taught them such a valuable lesson.
I thought it was a fact that you don't believe in God. Just because you don't think they have a basis for their beliefs doesn't mean that they don't.
They don't have any basis to think they are correct in how they condemn me. THAT is the bad manners. They should learn to be respectful and humble, but their religion has failed them. They have failed themselves, because they can do better without a religion's influence.
I don't think it's bad manners just to draw an incorrect conclusion, but being respectful and humble sound like good manners.
They are responsible for themselves and should take what they believe more seriously, and with better ethics.
Hmm, religion is not always polite dinner conversation, but there are forums available to talk about it.
It is arrogant to hold beliefs that lack evidence, and use them against others with malice.
I don't know about the arrogant part, but if they actually intend malice, that's very serious. That's more than simply having a belief about Heaven and Hell. Wanting you to not go to Hell is the opposite of wanting you to go to Hell. The first is goodwill. The second is malice.

I'm a humanist. The only legislation I support is that which enables the greatest number of affected people to pursue happiness as they understand it in an open, tolerant, secular, democratic state.

It's the church that promotes what I consider heinous legislation through Christian elected representatives and voters listening to sermons about how abominable gays, atheists, transexuals, drag queens are and how women should be prevented from having access to safe, affordable, legal abortion. The church opposes that, and I oppose the church for that reason. The church is invasive like kudzu and will overrun and control the government to the extent it can, and will constrict rights based in its religious doctrine whenever it can. This form of antitheism is the opposition to that.

And when the time comes that the church has hemorrhaged sufficient cultural hegemony that its opinions imposed on nobody and are confined to volunteers who choose these values for themselves, then I'll probably never think about it again just as I don't think about any of the other religions that powerless to control law and policy. Sure, the Muslims would make eating pork a crime and forbid women drivers' licenses if it could, but it can't, so that world overlaps mine none at all and doesn't get a second thought. They're just clubs that I don't belong to and never think about because why would I?
It seems like you aren't concerned about the generalization Nobelist Stephen Weinberg made with regard to "religion". By your own admission, you aren't even concerned about entire religions. Maybe you didn't think deeply about this quote or perhaps you would like to limit its applicability to, say, Christianity?
It comes from the same place the words you just read came from - contempt for a system of thought that deforms thought and degrades humanity. In Weinberg's case, he objects to a moral system like the one I just described, where good people can be convinced to support irrational, destructive doctrine. Sure, you don't like reading that, but does that matter if you can't rebut it? Why should Weinberg or any other humanist mind provoking people who buy into such a system? The purpose is to inform others of what this church is and does, and to convince whoever supports freedom and tolerance that church doctrine is antithetical to it.

This forum is a part of the marketplace of ideas where people make arguments like these. That's one of its purposes notwithstanding the implication of many that it exists to promote religion - the ones who ask what atheists are doing on a site called Religious Forums. This, among other things, is what we're doing - promoting a fair and rational worldview that esteems humanity, human potential, and human opportunity through human development and maximal freedom.

That church would criminalize this discussion if it could. If it had the power to arrest me for a post like this, it would. If you disagree, please make the evidenced argument demonstrating the church's tolerance. That's how the marketplace works. Someone makes a case, and others who disagree explain how, where, and why. It's (uncommonly) called dialectic, but it's to give and take that defines peer review in science and courtroom trials, where opposing factions make their case before other experts in the field in the case of science and jurors in the case of a trial, each trying to poke holes in the other's case, until a decision is reached, the last plausible, unrebutted (or unsuccessfully rebutted) claim prevails.

And why is that? Because correct answers can't be successfully rebutted. That's one method for arriving at correct answers. Another is an idea's ability to predict outcomes, but that means that there needs to be a test of the idea. I say that Weinberg's claim passes both tests. It cannot be successfully refuted, and it predicts exactly the kind of behavior Handmaid's Tale we've been seeing lately.

So now, yes, you find Weinberg's comment offensive, but do you find it incorrect? Do you still consider it nothing more than a hateful, unjustified, gratuitous attack? If so, please explain how. Show how religion doesn't do what Weinberg says it does, and I assume that Weinberg had Western religion in mind when he made the comment, which is chiefly Christianity. And if you can find no fault in it, why are you objecting to it? Why aren't you promoting it yourself? I don't know how you'll answer this, but if you reject it all out of hand and continue framing antitheism as an unwarranted attack on a lovely religion, then aren't you an example of what Weinberg referred to? You would be from my perspective.

I hope you choose reason and compassion over irrational dogma. That's why I post like this. This is an argument appealing to your sense of what is good and right, and I hope it comes from a mature conscience and not an old holy book or a pulpit.
The hate of religion that I detected in the quote was accurate. You admit that it comes from a place of "contempt".

You spend a lot of time talking about how this hate is justified. And I think this goes back to what I said before: that the judgement of God may seem unfair if you believe that you are a better judge than God. And you said that you believe you are a better judge. And that's the basic of it. It's not just that you have an opinion.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
He doesn't call out an example
He does. Not only in the books and speeches that he has given, but in the very quote in my post to which you just now responded. You are either being careless, or deceitful. I am curious, though not optimistic, to see if you will retract your statement.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I'm sure you can find statements that are more or less "full of hate". The quote from Nobelist Stephen Weinberg starts with calling religion an insult, so it's already starting off dealing in the world of insults. It also speaks in absolute. He doesn't call out an example, he blanket labels "religion". In other words, he sterotypes. And he places it in extreme: "Religion is an insult to human dignity." Now I can understand that you might think he's trying to say something profound by exaggeration. okay, possible. But it strikes me that this could really just be coming from a place of hate. I suspect that Nobelist Stephen Weinberg hates religion. Of course Nobelist Stephen Weinberg is entitled to his opinion and I don't have to agree with him.


I thought you said that you don't believe in God. That is a basis upon which a person might consider your soul to be in peril despite you not caring about it.

Are they condemning you to hell or are they concerned for your well being?

I thought it was a fact that you don't believe in God. Just because you don't think they have a basis for their beliefs doesn't mean that they don't.

I don't think it's bad manners just to draw an incorrect conclusion, but being respectful and humble sound like good manners.

Hmm, religion is not always polite dinner conversation, but there are forums available to talk about it.

I don't know about the arrogant part, but if they actually intend malice, that's very serious. That's more than simply having a belief about Heaven and Hell. Wanting you to not go to Hell is the opposite of wanting you to go to Hell. The first is goodwill. The second is malice.


It seems like you aren't concerned about the generalization Nobelist Stephen Weinberg made with regard to "religion". By your own admission, you aren't even concerned about entire religions. Maybe you didn't think deeply about this quote or perhaps you would like to limit its applicability to, say, Christianity?

The hate of religion that I detected in the quote was accurate. You admit that it comes from a place of "contempt".

You spend a lot of time talking about how this hate is justified. And I think this goes back to what I said before: that the judgement of God may seem unfair if you believe that you are a better judge than God. And you said that you believe you are a better judge. And that's the basic of it. It's not just that you have an opinion.

Writing a treatise on details, exceptions, degrees- of, and
how different people are affected is a bit much.

So with no hate in my heart for religion -
I'd agree with the general statement that
religion / superstition is an insult to intelligence.

And an enemy of same.

There's the brain dead drivel of creationism and the,
yes, contemptible charlatans who promote it.

in counterbalance theres the inspiration for great works of art and literature.

But
There's an awful lot more of the former.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
He does. Not only in the books and speeches that he has given, but in the very quote in my post to which you just now responded. You are either being careless, or deceitful. I am curious, though not optimistic, to see if you will retract your statement.
Depends on the religion.
A fundie will never do it.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I’m not sure what you’re referring to exactly.

Well Biden has been serious and doing quite a good job despite republicans having a minor majority in the House. It’s as much Biden’s experience and savvy as it is republican incompetence that has led to him doing quite a bit for the USA.

Notice he is working to get a Medicaid drug deal done while Republicans are sabotaging it. My money is on Biden.

Another success is how he got the student loans fixed that were supposed to go to zero balance after 20 years. Many were still paying despite the rule. It is now fixed and many borrowers have zero balance.
And you pick up the bill.
But hey its your choice.

I'm just glad we are not stuck with
his like here.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
And you pick up the bill.
But hey its your choice.
Well, the argument is reversing the tax cuts on billionaires and let that revenue help offset the costs of medical care for the elderly on limited incomes. Can you believe that some Americans can't afford healthcare and medicines? Some have to forego food to pay for medicines that might end them dead if they don't get it.

To help reduce costs to the government, both state and federal, that administration is negotiating drug prices. Lower bill for the taxpayer. Sounds like a good choice.
I'm just glad we are not stuck with
his like here.
Stuck with what?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems like you aren't concerned about the generalization Nobelist Stephen Weinberg made with regard to "religion".
What should I be concerned about? My only criticism of Weinberg's comment is that it doesn't apply to all religions. He's referring to Abrahamic religions. The dharmic religions and the various forms of paganism such as the Druids and Wiccans don't incorporate divine command theory or 'make good people do evil.'
You spend a lot of time talking about how this hate is justified.
You call it hate. I call it contempt, and yes, that is what I feel for religions like Christianity when they attempt to control the lives of the unwilling and teach people bigotries. And yes, that contempt is justified in my opinion. Feel free to rebut any part of it you find flawed, by which I mean falsify with sound argument whatever claims you think are false.
And I think this goes back to what I said before: that the judgement of God may seem unfair if you believe that you are a better judge than God. And you said that you believe you are a better judge
I don't believe in "God," by which I presume you mean the god of Abraham. There is no judgement of God, just men speaking through the literary device of a god, and yes, I am a better judge of both what is right and what is true than they are. So are you. or could be if you've chosen to defer to their ideas.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
For those of you who don't take the story of the Fall literally. Adam, Eve, Tree, Serpent, etc, how do you envision the Fall of Man happening? And if it didn't happen, what use is Jesus?
The fall of man notion isn’t dependent on a literal reading of the text (although those who claim to read it 'literally’ actually mean read it according to what they think it says, a literal reading would be something else entirely). If you read the story as an actual description of events, you have 2 people eat an apple on the advice of a talking snake/dragon, and this suddenly equips them with some sort of altered awareness, the so-called fall. If you read it as a symbolic representation of whatever the fall is meant to be, you still have the fall. How you read it has no connection to whether or not there was some fall of man, in the different readings there’s only a difference of opinion as to whether the fall is described literally - as the result of eating an apple - or if the description is symbolic.
 
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