How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[ppp]

Not a derailment. Very few progressive Christians have come forward anyway. I think you are bang on correct. Sin is just a way for reliion to create a problem for which religion then offers the solution.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Not a derailment. Very few progressive Christians have come forward anyway. I think you are bang on correct. Sin is just a way for reliion to create a problem for which religion then offers the solution.

In my opinion, the threat of hell (combined with rewards in heaven) is a classic example of "the carrot and the stick." I think it's a fearmongering strategy that was designed to keep people in church and in line. I think it was used to control the masses and keep money coming into the church offering plate.

 

[ppp]

1. The intricacy and complexity of a single living cell which shows it could not have arisen from non-living matter by chance, but points to an intelligent Creator.

2. The technological intelligence of modern humans beings over a billion other species point to an intelligent Creator and show we couldn’t have evolved by chance.

3. The earth and universe appears to be fine tuned and purposely designed for life.

4. The New Testament has one coherent theme concerning Jesus Christ, though written over 50 years, by at least nine authors who wrote 27 books, without a common editor. This points to inspiration by an intelligent God orchestrating the text and message.

You didn’t go over the points with any real information. All you basically said was…No, No, and No.

Why would he need to offer more evidence against your claims,than you provided for them?
I am not being glib or dismissive. Look at your statements. They are just bald assertions. Nothing else.

 

[InChrist]

That is what happened with me. I decided that I had been lax and needed to become more serious and invested in my faith (National Baptist). So I buckled down, studied the Bible, attended VBS and Bible Study, discussed with my fellow church members and theologians, and read the works of the prominent apologists of the time. And I prayed a lot. I loved it. And the more I learned the further I was driven into non-belief. Until I got to the point where it was clear that there is no reason to be convinced that anyone has a good reason, or is capable of having a good reason, to come to the conclusion that God exists.

Thanks for sharing. I find that to be a sad story, though.

 

[ppp]

Like my priest who taught me Catechism?
He taught us kids that Adam and Eve is just an allegory.
It's not the scientific truth.

Yes, he was a Christian, and if you ask me, a very good, holy priest.

Okay. I have known a lot of people who take that view. But that only sets the stage for my questions. It does not address them.

For those of you who don't take the story of the Fall literally. Adam, Eve, Tree, Serpent, etc, how do you envision the Fall of Man happening? And if it didn't happen, what use is Jesus?

 

[InChrist]

Why would he need to offer more evidence against your claims,than you provided for them?
I am not being glib or dismissive. Look at your statements. They are just bald assertions. Nothing else.

So are you saying then that a single cell is not complex? Is that a bald assertion? Isn’t that something we do know to be true?

 

[Truthseeker]

I thought the same thing. Believe it or not, I read elsewhere that there are Americans who are not Christians yet they believe in the resurrection.
Talk about odd. But this is how brainwashing works.

There are Muslims in this country and they believe in a literal resurrection. Perhaps some Jews do too. I seem to recall in a Gospel the Sadducees among the Jews believed in resurrection.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That is what happened with me. I decided that I had been lax and needed to become more serious and invested in my faith (National Baptist). So I buckled down, studied the Bible, attended VBS and Bible Study, discussed with my fellow church members and theologians, and read the works of the prominent apologists of the time. And I prayed a lot. I loved it. And the more I learned the further I was driven into non-belief. Until I got to the point where it was clear that there is no reason to be convinced that anyone has a good reason, or is capable of having a good reason, to come to the conclusion that God exists.

I was an evangelical Christian for 30 years, during which time I read the Bible from cover to cover several times. But I read the Bible through rose-colored glasses until I extensively studied it and Christian theology when I assisted my nephew in obtaining his Master of Theological Studies (MTS) degree and when I trained to be the leader of an evangelism team. Like you, I studied my way out of my belief in God, which eventually led me to renounce my belief.

 

[ppp]

Thanks for sharing. I find that to be a sad story, though.

I am not responsible for your feelings.

My point being that @Subduction Zone was correct.

If one is a serious believer the biggest mistake is to try to read the Bible literally. If one is honest that only leads to atheism.

It is one of the reasons that the RCC fought the common language versions of the Bible so hard.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You didn’t go over the points with any real information. All you basically said was…No, No, and No.
I am aware of Bible history. There are no contradictions with regard to foundation teachings. It was not the church fathers who decided the books of the Bible. The teachings of Christ, the letters of Paul and the other Apostles, and Gospels were already being circulated amongst the early believers/churches. Later in the fourth century the church fathers just officially recognized what was already being used as biblical scriptures. Anything that was contrary or deviated from the already accepted orthodox, foundational teachings were not included.

Please, you did not make your claim with any "real information". Your claim was refuted since I used the same "standards" that you did. Support your claim better and I will support the refutation better.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am not responsible for your feelings.

My point being that @Subduction Zone was correct.

It is one of the reasons that the RCC fought the common language versions of the Bible so hard.

The thing is that I have heard all of these bogus claims before. Over half of his arguments were just arguments from ignorance, but if needed I could refute those better. It was just a list of PRATT's.

 

[Estro Felino]

Okay. I have known a lot of people who take that view. But that only sets the stage for my questions. It does not address them.

For those of you who don't take the story of the Fall literally. Adam, Eve, Tree, Serpent, etc, how do you envision the Fall of Man happening? And if it didn't happen, what use is Jesus?

It's too complex to explain.
To simplify, I'll just say that back then, mankind was completely corrupt, and the fact that an innocent man like Jesus was crucified, proves it.
That's why He came. To show how sin and death can be defeated.
And overcome with a new rebirth from sin.

 

[ppp]

So are you saying then that a single cell is not complex? Is that a bald assertion? Isn’t that something we do know to be true?

1. The intricacy and complexity of a single living cell which shows it could not have arisen from non-living matter by chance, but points to an intelligent Creator.

I am saying that your "which shows" is the bald assertion. You have done nothing at all to demonstrate that complexity requires an an intelligent agent. Not. One. Thing.

You have not articulated any logical through line from your initial statement to the conclusion. You have offered nothing but the bald assertion that X shows Y.

 

[ppp]

The thing is that I have heard all of these bogus claims before. Over half of his arguments were just arguments from ignorance, but if needed I could refute those better. It was just a list of PRATT's.

That was vague. What exactly did I say that was bogus?

 

[ppp]

It's too complex to explain.

Thanks. But if it is too complicated to explain, then it is not worthwhile to read on.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So are you saying then that a single cell is not complex? Is that a bald assertion? Isn’t that something we do know to be true?

"How much complex", depends on the knowledge and prejudices of that person. For you, perhaps Chemistry does not exists, it is all your God's doing, he makes it work. For lay people with some knowledge of science, it is not complex. We know the basic principles. Scientists who are engaged in research in that field and want to know exactly what is happening, down to a single atom, it is difficult. I do not think Biology has given up all its secrets. But the scientists are picking at it piece by piece, and have traveled far as in Stem-cell treatment (correcting all the mistakes made by your God).
Chemistry of a cell is intricate because you have never tried to know more, for you just 'Goddidit' is enough, you do not want to go beyond that. But other people know more, the scientists working in that field know even more.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And overcome with a new rebirth from sin.

Nice, enjoy your new birth with all sins washed away.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There are Muslims in this country and they believe in a literal resurrection.

Muslim resurrection takes place in heaven and not on earth. Otherwise how would they enjoy their palatial mansions in heaven, the wonderful drinks that will be offered in heaven and the companionship of 72 houris (the maximum reserved the martyrs, others will not get as many). Tell me if that is wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

Otherwise how would they enjoy their palatial mansions in heaven, the wonderful drinks that will be offered in heaven and the companionship of 72 houris (the maximum reserved the martyrs, others will not get as many).

or so they believe.... Atheists know better, right?

 

[blü 2]

For those of you who don't take the story of the Fall literally. Adam, Eve, Tree, Serpent, etc, how do you envision the Fall of Man happening? And if it didn't happen, what use is Jesus?

There is no "fall of man" in the Garden of Eden story ─ as you'd know if you'd ever bothered to read it.

It contains no mention of sin, of a Fall, of death entering the world, of spiritual death, nothing of the kind.

Adam and Eve are NOT expelled from the Garden because of sin. The reason ─ the ONLY reason ─ they are expelled from the Garden is set out in Genesis 3:22-3:

22 Now the Lord god said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and live forever"─ therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden ...​

(I've added the emphasis. God is simply protecting [his] own a... ahm, own position.)

Although Paul mentions the Fall briefly, I don't recall it in any of the gospels, and no one paid it any attention until [expletive deleted] Augustine of Hippo seized on it, realizing how useful it would be for the sales department ─ "YOU, sir, and YOU, madam, and YOU, children, are all FALLEN, all DOOMED to eternity in HELL! [Dramatic pause, letting the tension build.] BUT FORTUNATELY there is one remedy, and FORTUNATELY I have it right here, and I'm sure none of you will mind becoming subscribers to obtain salvation THAT YOU CAN'T GET ANYWHERE ELSE!"

This is classical snake-oil salesmanship ─ draw a crowd, lecture them on a TERRIBLE imagined threat, fill them with fear, and sell them the remedy ─ very reasonably in all the circumstances, of course.

The passage that you should be focused on instead is in Ezekiel ─

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

In other words, sin is NOT inheritable.

(You may however find that some of God's curses hang around until the third generation, suggesting God doesn't read [his] own book very carefully.)