How can you justify the sheer complexity that evolution would have to evolve?

[TagliatelliMonster]

I find it utterly amazing how many people think evolution works like in Pokemon.

Even more mind boggling is that they refuse to accept that it doesn't, even after it is explained to them multiple times.

It's pure willful ignorance. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[gnostic]

the problem I have found with the theory of evolution, even though some say it's not a theory but rather it's the truth -- is really that although yes, the sizes of beaks can change due to genetic circumstances and yes, produce new species to an extent, the participants (I know language can be a pitfall) are still birds. Not humans.

This is example of dishonest strawman.

No one (as in no biologists or no paleontologists) would say that birds and humans are related in any way, nor any of them say that one would evolve into the other.

This pure fabrication on your part, but you are blaming biologists for the claims you had made up.

Can you cite the scientific source(s) that make this connection between humans and birds? I am doubting that you can, because it is very obvious that sources don’t exist.

 

[YoursTrue]

This is example of dishonest strawman.

No one (as in no biologists or no paleontologists) would say that birds and humans are related in any way, nor any of them say that one would evolve into the other.

This pure fabrication on your part, but you are blaming biologists for the claims you had made up.

Can you cite the scientific source(s) that make this connection between humans and birds? I am doubting that you can, because it is very obvious that sources don’t exist.

This shows me that you do not understand the theory. Since you say I have given a dishonest strawman, can you therefore explain how it is that everything alive is said to come from a "LUCA"? After that, please do say why many here claim that humans have descended(?) from fish, and I have seen some say humans are fish because of similarities.

 

[YoursTrue]

This is example of dishonest strawman.

No one (as in no biologists or no paleontologists) would say that birds and humans are related in any way, nor any of them say that one would evolve into the other.

This pure fabrication on your part, but you are blaming biologists for the claims you had made up.

Can you cite the scientific source(s) that make this connection between humans and birds? I am doubting that you can, because it is very obvious that sources don’t exist.

Sorry you don't think that science postulates that birds and humans are connected...but here is one source for your perusal to begin with. Inheriting homologies "Whales, lizards, humans, and birds all have the same basic limb layout. But how did such different animals wind up with the same sort of limb? The answer is that they inherited it from a common ancestor, just as cousins might inherit the same trait from their grandfather." The article is very interesting...showing that humans, whales, etc. (and birds, of course) inherited (so scientists say) a COMMON ANCESTOR. Want to argue with that? (Go ahead...)

 

[Tomef]

There are 3 billion base pairs in the human genom(a cell) and around 30-40 trillion cells in a human each specialized for a specific function.

There are approximately 86 billions of neurons in the brain.

The eye has a cornea, iris, pupil, lens, retina, optical nerve, macula, fovea, Aqueous Humor, Vitreous Humor, Ciliary Muscles, sclera, Choroid and Conjunctiva to name a few. The eye can distinguish between 10 million colours.

The human gut is home to trillions of microorganisms, collectively known as the gut microbiome.

These are just a few incredible facts about the human body there are hundreds more.

This doesn't even touch on the origins of the first cell, first DNA, first multi cell etc etc

How can you expect anybody to believe that it was random mutations that ultimately created all of this, the complexity is ridiculous and there's no way all these complex organisms could have evolved to work together in harmony as they do?

Reality is complex. If you are thinking of something that isn’t mind-bendingly complex beyond your ability to even to imagine, you are not thinking about reality.

In other words, you think reality should correspond to your limited worldview (or someone else’s). It doesn’t.

 

[YoursTrue]

This is example of dishonest strawman.

No one (as in no biologists or no paleontologists) would say that birds and humans are related in any way, nor any of them say that one would evolve into the other.

This pure fabrication on your part, but you are blaming biologists for the claims you had made up.

Can you cite the scientific source(s) that make this connection between humans and birds? I am doubting that you can, because it is very obvious that sources don’t exist.

Hi there, @gnostic. I hope you got a chance to look at the info from a pro-evolution website. Inheriting homologies stating from scientists that whales, lizards, humans, and birds all have the same basic limb layout. And they go further stating that they all, including humans and birds inherited it from a common ancestor, explaining it is like cousins that might inherit the same trait from their grandfather. Hope you understand what the science teaches. evolution.berkeley.edu. Not that I believe it, but that's what science teaches. No strawman argument there. Take care.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This shows me that you do not understand the theory. Since you say I have given a dishonest strawman, can you therefore explain how it is that everything alive is said to come from a "LUCA"? After that, please do say why many here claim that humans have descended(?) from fish, and I have seen some say humans are fish because of similarities.

Both humans and fish are vertebrates, because they share vertebrate ancestors.
Your post insinuated birds could evolve into humans.

Pure hogwash

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sorry you don't think that science postulates that birds and humans are connected

Birds and humans, like all other animals, share ancestors in the deep past. They are related, but very distantly.
Birds will not evolve into humans, like you insinuated in your post.

...but here is one source for your perusal to begin with. Inheriting homologies "Whales, lizards, humans, and birds all have the same basic limb layout. But how did such different animals wind up with the same sort of limb? The answer is that they inherited it from a common ancestor, just as cousins might inherit the same trait from their grandfather." The article is very interesting...showing that humans, whales, etc. (and birds, of course) inherited (so scientists say) a COMMON ANCESTOR. Want to argue with that? (Go ahead...)

Nobody is arguing with that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Hi there, @gnostic. I hope you got a chance to look at the info from a pro-evolution website. Inheriting homologies stating from scientists that whales, lizards, humans, and birds all have the same basic limb layout. And they go further stating that they all, including humans and birds inherited it from a common ancestor, explaining it is like cousins that might inherit the same trait from their grandfather.

Yes. And none of them insinuate that birds will evolve into non-birds (let alone humans) like you claimed in your post.

Hope you understand what the science teaches.

We do. It's you who has problems with understanding it.
Deliberately, it would seem. Why else would you still be repeating the same mistake that was already corrected over 3 years ago (and many more times since then)?

evolution.berkeley.edu. Not that I believe it, but that's what science teaches. No strawman argument there. Take care.

Read your own post for the strawman.
"birds remain birds. not humans", remember?

 

[Audie]

Both humans and fish are vertebrates, because they share vertebrate ancestors.
Your post insinuated birds could evolve into humans.

Pure hogwash

Some hogwashes are best ignored.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry you don't think that science postulates that birds and humans are connected...but here is one source for your perusal to begin with. Inheriting homologies "Whales, lizards, humans, and birds all have the same basic limb layout. But how did such different animals wind up with the same sort of limb? The answer is that they inherited it from a common ancestor, just as cousins might inherit the same trait from their grandfather." The article is very interesting...showing that humans, whales, etc. (and birds, of course) inherited (so scientists say) a COMMON ANCESTOR. Want to argue with that? (Go ahead...)

Yes, we share a common ancestor. But that does not make humans birds. We are of course as you know apes. That is because we are descended from apes. The common ancestor that we share with birds was not a bird. The common ancestor that we share with birds was not a reptile. The common ancestor that we share with birds was a tetrapod and guess what, you are still a tetrapod too. You can see that quite easily. You have, I assume, four limbs and a head.

 

[SkepticThinker]

the problem I have found with the theory of evolution, even though some say it's not a theory but rather it's the truth -- is really that although yes, the sizes of beaks can change due to genetic circumstances and yes, produce new species to an extent, the participants (I know language can be a pitfall) are still birds. Not humans. And if someone wants to tell me that birds and humans diverged from some common denominator a long time ago, my response would be -- probably -- hasta la vista.

And yet it's still evolution.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No one (as in no biologists or no paleontologists) would say that birds and humans are related in any way,

All life is related, in that all life came from a common ancestor. We are even related to pond scum. But we are certainly FAR more related to a chimp than a single cell organism.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Emotions and feelings are individual and subjective. They're different for each individual. People have been relying on them for thousands of years, without arriving at any consistent, or testable conclusions. They are unreliable epistemic tools.

A conclusion arrived at emotionally is an irrational conclusion. Rational involves logical assessment of actual, objective evidence.

Yeah, but to claim that irrationality is bad and rationality is good, are emotions and feelings and thus irrational.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yeah, but to claim that irrationality is bad and rationality is good, are emotions and feelings and thus irrational.

No one is saying that feelings are bad. They are wonderful when used as indicated on the enclosed instructions. But bad stuff happens when you try to make feelings do the job or your reasoning mind.

 

[gnostic]

This shows me that you do not understand the theory. Since you say I have given a dishonest strawman, can you therefore explain how it is that everything alive is said to come from a "LUCA"? After that, please do say why many here claim that humans have descended(?) from fish, and I have seen some say humans are fish because of similarities.

I hope you got a chance to look at the info from a pro-evolution website. Inheriting homologies stating from scientists that whales, lizards, humans, and birds all have the same basic limb layout.

You don’t seem to understand LUCA at all.

The webpage you cited only say that these are all tetrapods - 4 limbs, not that humans from birds. That your misunderstanding of the website.

Humans are mammals not birds, and certainly didn’t evolve from birds.

Where does it say in that webpage, agreed with your claim?

Humans as with other mammals, have mammary glands, birds and lizards don’t. Mammals grow hair or fur, not feathers. Aside from bats, most (mammals) don’t have wings, nor keel bone, which enabled birds for powered flight. Humans like most mammals (except with platypuses and echidnas) give live birth after period of growing in fetuses female wombs, while birds (like reptiles) lay their eggs.

The most common & obvious traits (in today, extant groups) that are shared by mammals, reptiles, birds, and even amphibians, is that they all have vertebrae (hence vertebrates) and 4 limbs (hence tetrapods).

The biggest differences between amphibians and that of mammals, reptiles & birds, is that amphibians do lay their eggs too, except they lay them in water, while reptiles and birds do so on dry lands, hence amphibians are known as anamniotes, like fishes are anamniotes, as fishes too lay their eggs in aquatic or marine environments.

Mammals, reptiles and birds are amniotes, with mammals give live birth, excepting platypuses and echidnas, which lay their eggs on dry lands as reptiles and birds do. Marine mammals like whales, dolphins & porpoises give live birth.

Amniotes are organisms that belonged to the clade Amniota, all mammals and reptiles belong this group, they are all amniotes. But the ancestors to both mammals and reptiles, there were divergence between 319 & 330 million years ago, that the tetrapod amniotes diverged into clades -

1. clade Sauropsida
2. clade Synapsida

The synapsids are amniotic tetrapod vertebrates that include all animals that belonged to the extinct pelycosaurs & therapsids, the extant mammals.

Synapsids, like mammals, are recognisable by their skulls of only having 1 hole behind each eye orbits, these holes are called “temporal fenestrae”.

Sauropsida include the class Reptilia, in which Reptilia can be divided into 2 main groups or clades:

clade Archosauria are all “diapsid” sauropsid reptiles that have 2 holes (temporal fenestrae) behind each eye orbits. And the archosaurs can be broadly 2 clades:​

​

(A) clade Pseudosuchia, which included all extinct relatives, as well as extant order Crocodilia, hence crocodiles.​

​

(B) clade Avemetatarsalia, which included all​

​

pterosaurs, order Pterosauria​

​

dinosaurs. Of the dinosaurs, all non-avian dinosaurs became extinct, while most avian dinosaurs also became extinct, except those that have avian dinosaurs evolved into birds.​

​

(C) Turtles and tortoises belonged to the order Testudines, was formerly placed in Lepidosauria group with lizards and snakes (order Sqamata), but molecular studies have shown that the turtles & tortoises were related closer to other archosaurs, hence biologists recognised the Testudines belonged to Archosauria. But unlike all archosaurs that have 2 holes (temporal fenestrae), turtles have no holes behind the eye sockets. So grouping turtles with archosaurs are no so clear cut.​

​

​

clade or superclass Lepidosauria of which only 2 orders have survived:​

(A) order Rhynchocephalia, of which only the tuatara is the only living species, inhabiting New Zealand.​

​

(B) order Squamata, includes all lizards and snakes.​

Despite the term “lizard”, technically, biologically & genetically, dinosaurs and crocodiles are not lizards. They are all reptiles, but not all reptiles are lizards, even though in the 19th century, Richard Owen coined the term dinosaur which means “terrible lizards“.

The points are that tetrapods are not the only physical traits that identified relations between vast numbers of tetrapods, there are also vast number of differences that separate them. Humans and birds do have something in common, but humans didn’t evolve from birds, as their ancestors diverged long ago, between the Synapsids (mammals) and Sauropsids (reptiles including the archosaurs that birds belonged to).

What you are claiming is not possible, and more to the point, you have misunderstood the link you have posted.

 

[YoursTrue]

You don’t seem to understand LUCA at all.

The webpage you cited only say that these are all tetrapods - 4 limbs, not that humans from birds. That your misunderstanding of the website.

Humans are mammals not birds, and certainly didn’t evolve from birds.

Where does it say in that webpage, agreed with your claim?

Humans as with other mammals, have mammary glands, birds and lizards don’t. Mammals grow hair or fur, not feathers. Aside from bats, most (mammals) don’t have wings, nor keel bone, which enabled birds for powered flight. Humans like most mammals (except with platypuses and echidnas) give live birth after period of growing in fetuses female wombs, while birds (like reptiles) lay their eggs.

The most common & obvious traits (in today, extant groups) that are shared by mammals, reptiles, birds, and even amphibians, is that they all have vertebrae (hence vertebrates) and 4 limbs (hence tetrapods).

The biggest differences between amphibians and that of mammals, reptiles & birds, is that amphibians do lay their eggs too, except they lay them in water, while reptiles and birds do so on dry lands, hence amphibians are known as anamniotes, like fishes are anamniotes, as fishes too lay their eggs in aquatic or marine environments.

Mammals, reptiles and birds are amniotes, with mammals give live birth, excepting platypuses and echidnas, which lay their eggs on dry lands as reptiles and birds do. Marine mammals like whales, dolphins & porpoises give live birth.

Amniotes are organisms that belonged to the clade Amniota, all mammals and reptiles belong this group, they are all amniotes. But the ancestors to both mammals and reptiles, there were divergence between 319 & 330 million years ago, that the tetrapod amniotes diverged into clades -

1. clade Sauropsida
2. clade Synapsida

The synapsids are amniotic tetrapod vertebrates that include all animals that belonged to the extinct pelycosaurs & therapsids, the extant mammals.

Synapsids, like mammals, are recognisable by their skulls of only having 1 hole behind each eye orbits, these holes are called “temporal fenestrae”.

Sauropsida include the class Reptilia, in which Reptilia can be divided into 2 main groups or clades:

clade Archosauria are all “diapsid” sauropsid reptiles that have 2 holes (temporal fenestrae) behind each eye orbits. And the archosaurs can be broadly 2 clades:​

​

(A) clade Pseudosuchia, which included all extinct relatives, as well as extant order Crocodilia, hence crocodiles.​

​

(B) clade Avemetatarsalia, which included all​

​

pterosaurs, order Pterosauria​

​

dinosaurs. Of the dinosaurs, all non-avian dinosaurs became extinct, while most avian dinosaurs also became extinct, except those that have avian dinosaurs evolved into birds.​

​

(C) Turtles and tortoises belonged to the order Testudines, was formerly placed in Lepidosauria group with lizards and snakes (order Sqamata), but molecular studies have shown that the turtles & tortoises were related closer to other archosaurs, hence biologists recognised the Testudines belonged to Archosauria. But unlike all archosaurs that have 2 holes (temporal fenestrae), turtles have no holes behind the eye sockets. So grouping turtles with archosaurs are no so clear cut.​

​

​

clade or superclass Lepidosauria of which only 2 orders have survived:​

(A) order Rhynchocephalia, of which only the tuatara is the only living species, inhabiting New Zealand.​

​

(B) order Squamata, includes all lizards and snakes.​

Despite the term “lizard”, technically, biologically & genetically, dinosaurs and crocodiles are not lizards. They are all reptiles, but not all reptiles are lizards, even though in the 19th century, Richard Owen coined the term dinosaur which means “terrible lizards“.

The points are that tetrapods are not the only physical traits that identified relations between vast numbers of tetrapods, there are also vast number of differences that separate them. Humans and birds do have something in common, but humans didn’t evolve from birds, as their ancestors diverged long ago, between the Synapsids (mammals) and Sauropsids (reptiles including the archosaurs that birds belonged to).

What you are claiming is not possible, and more to the point, you have misunderstood the link you have posted.

The more people quote about clades and LUCA, etc., the less inclined I am to go along with that reasoning. But! you have a real nice evening, I hope. Bye for now. Oh yes, the reason is that there is no real substance to the guesswork, and that's what it is, guesswork based on what they say are fossil remains as well as more guesswork about the "first cell." So again -- have a great evening. P.S. Whilst you and others may make the assignation that I do not understand evolution (actually the theory of), I do. I do understand it but do not believe it as posited by believers of the theory anymore.

 

[YoursTrue]

Sorry you don't think that science postulates that birds and humans are connected...but here is one source for your perusal to begin with. Inheriting homologies "Whales, lizards, humans, and birds all have the same basic limb layout. But how did such different animals wind up with the same sort of limb? The answer is that they inherited it from a common ancestor, just as cousins might inherit the same trait from their grandfather." The article is very interesting...showing that humans, whales, etc. (and birds, of course) inherited (so scientists say) a COMMON ANCESTOR. Want to argue with that? (Go ahead...)

To @gnostic -- not even going to argue with you about this any more. Or discuss "clades" as if they morphed from one form or species to another, etc. birds/lizards/plants, etc. Maybe one cell, maybe two, maybe more, etc. Have a good one, take care...

 

[gnostic]

All life is related, in that all life came from a common ancestor. We are even related to pond scum. But we are certainly FAR more related to a chimp than a single cell organism.

yes, all life are related.

however I have issues with claim made by @YoursTrue that humans evolved from birds.

her nonsensical have nothing to do with LUCA.

 

[YoursTrue]

yes, all life are related.

however I have issues with claim made by @YoursTrue that humans evolved from birds.

her nonsensical have nothing to do with LUCA.

It sure does, even if you and others don't admit it.