How can you justify torturing someone forever?

[tarasan]

Good point.
I mean, since you cannot prove he even exists....

this thread is based on the assumtion that he exists

I am presuming that what Christians say their god is and can do is true and accurate.
The same evidence you have that god even exists in the first place.

Are you perhaps questioning the truth and or accuracy of what you and your fellow Christians claim god is and does?

like i said above this thread is assumes my God exists in order to ask its question, if you want to talk about that particular subject I advise you go elsewere.

yes we are questioning each others accuracy, your point?

 

[tarasan]

Okay, I'll drop the imperfect human point (although I don't see why it's invalid) - because I want to get back to Hell.
If God is benevolent, and feels he must punish someone - how is subjecting them to eternal, irrevocable cruelty and torture in anyway suitable? And how does he still get away with "benevolent" attached to his name?
There seem to be much less evil ways to deal with it...

again your talking as if Sin doesnt call for this kind of action prove to me how it isnt within a Christian context

So God creates people, knows which people are going to "go the wrong way" (but creates them anyway), and then condemns them to eternal suffering?


But a God being omniscient knows exactly who will end up sinning and hence going to Hell - so when he creates them - he is creating them to live in eternal misery and punishment.
He gives people freewill, and then punishes them eternally for using it.

indeed we have free will to do right and wrong, ultimately it is up to us what happens to us, ohh and btw theologically speaking we all sin, thats why we need God to forgive us, and yes he knows it, however ultimately he is that choice, by allowing their decisions to impact what happens to them he is giving their lives meaning, and he is making them matter, ultimately he is treating them with repect when he creates them, he allows them right to go their own way, he gives them dignity.

Nothing is worth eternal damnation. I wouldn't ever condemn anyone to such an absolutely blatently unnecessary and horrific sentence. It's nothing but evil.
How would something like robbing a bank or lying possibly justify eternal torture and misery?

So I could bring a flamethrower to the local school, torch everyone - ask for forgiveness, and then go to Heaven? All while a perfectly good person, but who simply doesn't believe in God due to their questioning nature, gets subjected to perpetual torture? How is that possibly just?

firstly your thought experiment is over simplifying the situation, it is a matter of repentance rather than asking for forgiviness you have to mean it. you have to truely feel sorry for what you have done, and ask for Gods mercy, and through God making a change, lip service to God doesnt cut it. what do you mean by "good" because in a chrsitian sense no one is good. I mean I think your asking wether God should let a repenting sinner into heaven or an arrogant rebelious sinner into heaven.

It doesn't seem like God can reverse that - his answer seems to be pretty sadistic. He doesn't give you a second chance after death, or even have the decency to grant you non existance (which is more preferable than eternal torture). Instead, he opts for the most cruel, unforgiving option possible.

You don't seem to realise how evil the concept of Hell actually is.

ok now you have just stated annihaltionalism which is a recognised concept of hell, the fact i humming about going into this debate was because your using a very narrow view of what hell is, you know there are many kinds right? and that the one your using isnt the one christians usually go with anymore right?

I dont think you understand the horrible concept of God forcing you to love him. If this kind of a God that you wanted actually existed then, ultiamtely YOU would be meaningless, you'd just be an insignificant toy of God that no matter what you did or believed, would ultiamtely be forced to love him, hell is a trade off, with it you truely have free will and the right to do whatever you want, God literally gives you the right to control your destiny for better or worse.

Your concept however makes God out to be a kind of wierd needy stalker..

 

[tarasan]

I still find it utterly amazing that people can say this with a straight face.

Do they not know just how stupid it makes them sound?

no, although Im sure this wasnt just a belittling statement and you have in fact, got a construstrucive remark about it?

 

[tarasan]

Really?
God is not literate enough to know the difference?

ohh my goodness your right! I mean it was like I was using a theological definition of anything!:troll:

 

[Raithie]

again your talking as if Sin doesnt call for this kind of action prove to me how it isnt within a Christian context

... it doesn't matter what your sin is - the point is absolutely nothing can compare to ETERNAL suffering...
seriously - how is anything justified by eternal misery and torture...? You can't just claim that "sin is worth it", because it's not. I cannot imagine anything more cruel or evil than Hell. The scale of it is simply incomprehensible.

indeed we have free will to do right and wrong, ultimately it is up to us what happens to us, ohh and btw theologically speaking we all sin, thats why we need God to forgive us, and yes he knows it, however ultimately he is that choice, by allowing their decisions to impact what happens to them he is giving their lives meaning, and he is making them matter, ultimately he is treating them with repect when he creates them, he allows them right to go their own way, he gives them dignity.

But why punish them eternally? If God was truly loving, he wouldn't condemn anyone to such a fate. He creates us with the potential for sin, and then when we do - he chooses the most evil (and pointless - it doesn't fix anything, except inspire fear, which doesn't make sense for an all loving God to do) way to go. If he really felt that he HAD to punish us because of the way he designed us (and ofcourse upbringing plays a major part too), there are much less evil ways.
Also - if he's omnscient, he knows exactly who will go to Hell before he even creates anything, and then he creates them anyway. It's almost as if he's creating them solely for the torture.

firstly your thought experiment is over simplifying the situation, it is a matter of repentance rather than asking for forgiviness you have to mean it. you have to truely feel sorry for what you have done, and ask for Gods mercy, and through God making a change, lip service to God doesnt cut it. what do you mean by "good" because in a chrsitian sense no one is good. I mean I think your asking wether God should let a repenting sinner into heaven or an arrogant rebelious sinner into heaven.

Whether they truly feel sorry or not still doesn't counter the fact that an entire school of children were burned alive because of someones actions. And then someone who lived a good life (helping others etc.) gets tossed into Hell because of his questioning nature and the way God created him. How anyone, not even to mention an all loving God, could possibly be okay with that is sickening.

ok now you have just stated annihaltionalism which is a recognised concept of hell, the fact i humming about going into this debate was because your using a very narrow view of what hell is, you know there are many kinds right? and that the one your using isnt the one christians usually go with anymore right?

This topic is about how Christians could justify torturing someone forever, so that was the kind of Hell I was talking about.

I dont think you understand the horrible concept of God forcing you to love him. If this kind of a God that you wanted actually existed then, ultiamtely YOU would be meaningless, you'd just be an insignificant toy of God that no matter what you did or believed, would ultiamtely be forced to love him, hell is a trade off, with it you truely have free will and the right to do whatever you want, God literally gives you the right to control your destiny for better or worse.

Your concept however makes God out to be a kind of wierd needy stalker..

Firstly, if God made us perfect and incapable of sin - that doesn't mean he's forcing us to love him. It just means that we wouldn't commit crimes and atrocities because we would also be benevolent.
Secondly - how does an all loving and all knowing God justify Hell as a "trade off"? He is actively setting up a situation which involves eternal torture and misery. Once again, if he felt that he needed to punish his creations - he could either give them another chance in a different life or grant them non existance as opposed to being "tormented with fire and brimstone” “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”.

My "concept" of God is simply that of the God of the Bible (I am an atheist). I don't see how Christians believe in the Bible whilst picking and choosing what they want (ie what Hell to believe etc.,) when the Bible doesn't differentiate between the two (simple stories and truth).

 

[sojourner]

yes but ultimately we have to accept him

Ultimately, we shall.

ok tell me where is says in the bible that he has taken away the sin of the unbeliever?

John 1:29. "The world" includes believers and non-believers.

indeed ask to be forgiven and turn your life around.

...because you have already been saved, not in order to obtain salvation.

well why cant sin be that bad?

sin is that bad. But God's love overcomes that badness.

not true ultimately we have a choice we choose to either bleieve in god or turn our lives around or we choose to reject him, this is a choice, ultimately with yours however we have no choice, we are just drones and ultimately what we do is meaningless because ultiamtely we will end up in the same place, heck my whole life i could rape children and then with a broad face walk into heaven, its a sick concept there is justice in the world.

I've never said that we don't have a choice. I've only said that God waits and searches until we decide to come home. What's even sicker is someone who blithely sits in a putrid puddle of their own self-righteousness, smugly touting God's "justice" of creating someone with a propensity to sin and then condemning him/her for all eternity. Even sicker yet is a God whose grace is weaker than our sin.

he will let us make our own choices, and let our choices matter, rather than do what your suggesting and make us his own little pawns, what your saying is a horrible concept just as bad as teh hyper calvinists its disgusting.

Once again, I never claimed that we were pawns. I only claim that God will search out out until we are found.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

See, it's in sojourner's interpretation of Christianity where I feel I could stop worrying so much and just spend my time loving.

Big Squishy Hug, anyone?

 

[tarasan]

Ultimately, we shall.

John 1:29. "The world" includes believers and non-believers.

actually that same world of hebrew can also mean elect.

I've never said that we don't have a choice. I've only said that God waits and searches until we decide to come home. What's even sicker is someone who blithely sits in a putrid puddle of their own self-righteousness, smugly touting God's "justice" of creating someone with a propensity to sin and then condemning him/her for all eternity. Even sicker yet is a God whose grace is weaker than our sin.

Once again, I never claimed that we were pawns. I only claim that God will search out out until we are found.

you see this is the crux of our disagreement, ultiamtely you do not see that if Jesus refuses to let us accept anything else but him, then ultimately we are just pawns. Its like if someone forced you to love him. I mean how long is God willing to wait and what if someone stubbornly doesnt want a relationship with him? he will wait and wait until they crack! that isnt free will. ultimately you refuse to accept that such a God violates our free will and choice forcing us to choose him, which is what the "until" i mean it almost sounds a torture in and of itself, having God sit you down and not let you leave until you worship him. at least my god allows us to make our own choices, yours does not.

 

[tarasan]

See, it's in sojourner's interpretation of Christianity where I feel I could stop worrying so much and just spend my time loving.

Big Squishy Hug, anyone?

its disgusting, ultimately it means there is not real need to do good, because ultimately there is not justice for the unrepentant paedophile, there is no meaning, because no matter what you choose in this life, you will be made to have a relationship with God no matter what you want. to this way of thinking your nothing but a pawn.

Hell is the consequence of free will.

 

[tarasan]

... it doesn't matter what your sin is - the point is absolutely nothing can compare to ETERNAL suffering...
seriously - how is anything justified by eternal misery and torture...? You can't just claim that "sin is worth it", because it's not. I cannot imagine anything more cruel or evil than Hell. The scale of it is simply incomprehensible.

your assuming, you have no idea if anything can compare to an eternal suffering in hell, and just because you dont know it doesnt mean its not possible, you are just on the wrong end of sin to concieve its horror.

But why punish them eternally? If God was truly loving, he wouldn't condemn anyone to such a fate. He creates us with the potential for sin, and then when we do - he chooses the most evil (and pointless - it doesn't fix anything, except inspire fear, which doesn't make sense for an all loving God to do) way to go. If he really felt that he HAD to punish us because of the way he designed us (and ofcourse upbringing plays a major part too), there are much less evil ways.
Also - if he's omnscient, he knows exactly who will go to Hell before he even creates anything, and then he creates them anyway. It's almost as if he's creating them solely for the torture.

how do you know? you seem to think your the best for this situation and I wonder why? again this is a misunderstand of the horror of sin and we have covered the potential of sin and didnt you concede that point. again like I said he created them so they could choose so that they could live out their destiny the way they saw fit, he gave them the right to hold their destiny in their hands and make a choice, if he refused to create them he would deny them that choice, and ultimatley made them meaningless.

Whether they truly feel sorry or not still doesn't counter the fact that an entire school of children were burned alive because of someones actions. And then someone who lived a good life (helping others etc.) gets tossed into Hell because of his questioning nature and the way God created him. How anyone, not even to mention an all loving God, could possibly be okay with that is sickening.

ok so again an unrepentant sinner vs an unrepentant one, some who has admitted they done wrong against someone who doesnt. because ultimately in the eyes of God no one is good because we have all sinned the point is that can we admitt it and make a change.

Firstly, if God made us perfect and incapable of sin - that doesn't mean he's forcing us to love him. It just means that we wouldn't commit crimes and atrocities because we would also be benevolent.
Secondly - how does an all loving and all knowing God justify Hell as a "trade off"? He is actively setting up a situation which involves eternal torture and misery. Once again, if he felt that he needed to punish his creations - he could either give them another chance in a different life or grant them non existance as opposed to being "tormented with fire and brimstone” “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”.

firstly no if he made us incapable of sin he would have made us his puppets, unable to go against him thats supression not freedom. if you are incapable of thinking for yourself that makes you a puppet, and that it what you are suggesting, to think for yourself you must be capable of disagreeing, in this scenario you arnt.

you have no idea if they would changed their mind or not do you? only an omniscent God would know that. also again you assume that you know that the punishment doesnt suit the crime which you dont, your whole agruement is based on assumptions which doesnt seem to be based on the doctrine of sin at all.

My "concept" of God is simply that of the God of the Bible (I am an atheist). I don't see how Christians believe in the Bible whilst picking and choosing what they want (ie what Hell to believe etc.,) when the Bible doesn't differentiate between the two (simple stories and truth).

erm its quite simple.... all statements of hell in the bible are told through parables or prophets, and because of that the concept of hell isnt as clear cut as other doctrines, so there is room for interpretation.

 

[tarasan]

newsflash--according to your myth system, He did wipe us all out, all but one family. So too bad for you, poor person who had the temerity to use the brains God supposedly gave you!

all but one family so i dont see your point he allowed the human race to go on.

ahhh petty insults will get you nowhere, I had the tolerance once to give you the benefit of the doubt and had a reasonible conversation with you, are you willing to do the same for me?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

its disgusting, ultimately it means there is not real need to do good, because ultimately there is not justice for the unrepentant paedophile, there is no meaning, because no matter what you choose in this life, you will be made to have a relationship with God no matter what you want. to this way of thinking your nothing but a pawn.

Hell is the consequence of free will.

Eternal torture is not justice.

I'd rather do good because it's a natural extension of compassion for others. Not because out of a motivation to avoid hell. That's motivation only from fear.

I find your version of "justice" rather disgusting, myself.

 

[wmjbyatt]

Mystic Sang'ha: Of course you would, and so, I'm sure, would the Christian God. The Scriptures support this. But sometimes, in leading someone into Goodness, you must first repel them from Badness. Positive and Negative reinforcement are both valuable. It can take a lot for someone to be psychologically equipped to embrace Goodness for its own sake when there are survival cues and triggers built into the psyche that cause morality and self-interest to come into conflict. So theological structures build systems of deterring people from Badness and bringing them into Goodness.

Of course, that whole concept is predicated on duality, which is... not necessary.

 

[sojourner]

actually that same world of hebrew can also mean elect.

Humanity is the elect.

you see this is the crux of our disagreement, ultiamtely you do not see that if Jesus refuses to let us accept anything else but him, then ultimately we are just pawns. Its like if someone forced you to love him. I mean how long is God willing to wait and what if someone stubbornly doesnt want a relationship with him? he will wait and wait until they crack! that isnt free will. ultimately you refuse to accept that such a God violates our free will and choice forcing us to choose him, which is what the "until" i mean it almost sounds a torture in and of itself, having God sit you down and not let you leave until you worship him. at least my god allows us to make our own choices, yours does not.

Our choice is our choice. There are right choices and wrong choices. Just as the Prodigal's father allowed the son to make his choices, ultimately, the son realized that his ways were not good for him, and he returned home penitent. The father waited until the son returned, and then welcomed him with open arms. That's how the kingdom of God is. God allows us to make our choices and run around doing things and going places that aren't good for us. When we discover that we need to come home, God will be waiting with open arms to welcome us.

its disgusting, ultimately it means there is not real need to do good, because ultimately there is not justice for the unrepentant paedophile, there is no meaning, because no matter what you choose in this life, you will be made to have a relationship with God no matter what you want. to this way of thinking your nothing but a pawn.

God still expects us to be responsible. The pedophile will be repentant when s/he returns home, just as we all will be. Relationships are not forced. They are entered into freely. when we're ready, God will be there.

Hell is the consequence of free will.

Heaven is the consequence of free will.

 

[sojourner]

again this is a misunderstand of the horror of sin and we have covered the potential of sin and didnt you concede that point.

the extravagance of God's love outweighs the horror of sin.

 

[sojourner]

Mystic Sang'ha: Of course you would, and so, I'm sure, would the Christian God. The Scriptures support this. But sometimes, in leading someone into Goodness, you must first repel them from Badness. Positive and Negative reinforcement are both valuable. It can take a lot for someone to be psychologically equipped to embrace Goodness for its own sake when there are survival cues and triggers built into the psyche that cause morality and self-interest to come into conflict. So theological structures build systems of deterring people from Badness and bringing them into Goodness.

Of course, that whole concept is predicated on duality, which is... not necessary.

Heaven isn't a reward. it's a gift.

 

[tarasan]

Eternal torture is not justice.

I'd rather do good because it's a natural extension of compassion for others. Not because out of a motivation to avoid hell. That's motivation only from fear.

I find your version of "justice" rather disgusting, myself.

it would be justice if it suited the crime which it would against I dont personnaly accept that specific doctrine, but even so you do not understand the extent of the crime. or refuse either way..

 

[tarasan]

Humanity is the elect.

again this is you trying to twist the verse into what it means

Our choice is our choice. There are right choices and wrong choices. Just as the Prodigal's father allowed the son to make his choices, ultimately, the son realized that his ways were not good for him, and he returned home penitent. The father waited until the son returned, and then welcomed him with open arms. That's how the kingdom of God is. God allows us to make our choices and run around doing things and going places that aren't good for us. When we discover that we need to come home, God will be waiting with open arms to welcome us.

indeed but in the case of real life some people dont come home, the refuse to the parable doesnt imply an unlimited amount of time, your implying it does would you like me to quote you some scriptures in context?

God still expects us to be responsible. The pedophile will be repentant when s/he returns home, just as we all will be. Relationships are not forced. They are entered into freely. when we're ready, God will be there.

Heaven is the consequence of free will.

yeah but you dont have to be responsible according to your view, I mean its not something that neccessary, the paedohile murder can walk into heaven smiling without ever recanting, without ever recieving any judgement, hey whats ultiamtely stopping me, from butchering hundreds of people? to you its nothing, to you there is no cost for misdeeds, heck there doesnt even have to be a recant.

to you it isnt, what happens to those who die and havnt excepted god, they will be kept somewhere until they do, thats forced love, forced worship he doesnt have a choice. its like saying a person who is being tortured has a choice, in reality he doesnt the people doing that to him will get what they want eventually. no matter how much you deny it, ultimately your version of things only has one choice and therefore no choice.

btw where will these people be held in the afterlife before they choose God?

 

[tarasan]

the extravagance of God's love outweighs the horror of sin.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

—Matthew 5:22

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

—2 Thessalonians 1:9

And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

—Revelation 20:9-15

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

—Daniel 12:2

i see? so what have you to say to these... few bible verses about hell

 

[sojourner]

it would be justice if it suited the crime which it would against I dont personnaly accept that specific doctrine, but even so you do not understand the extent of the crime. or refuse either way..

There simply is no crime -- especially from a theological standpoint -- that deserves eternal punishment.