How can you literally believe...

[RedDragon94]

Further, what evidence of God exists?

We're here.

Why? Have you examined the evidence? Do you really believe Luke was written at the time of the crucifixion?

No, I believe it was written 30 years after.

..people who study the human brain and memory? Just google "Memory change by recall" and you're going to find thousands of articles and studies on this.

I'll try to remember to do that.

 

[columbus]

What evidence is there for Paul's existence as opposed to Christ's?

What difference does that make?
I don't much doubt their existence. That is extremely plausible. Much more likely than not.

What I question is the stories told about them. That is completely different.
A WWII vet writing his memoirs, including the 1942 French invasion of Berlin, would not convince me that he knows more than the people who don't remember such a battle. Because I expect some evidence of that miraculous event and there isn't any to be found. Similarly, the Gospels describe momentous events that nobody except the authors remember. Such as the eclipse/earthquake on a Passover around the year 20ce.
Tom

 

[lovesong]

Says who?

..people who study the human brain and memory? Just google "Memory change by recall" and you're going to find thousands of articles and studies on this.

This. As a psychology major I can securely agree. Further evidence lies in the evolution of fables, stories, myths, and legends, if science doesn't suit you.

We're here.

I thought you never assumed anything.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

We're here.

You appear to think you're going to be charged by the letter or something. Yes...we are here. And there are various 'explanations' as to how that occurred. A literal, Christian God is merely one of them, so saying that 'we're here' says nothing about God or Gods. Even if it was a compelling argument for God, you're hardly a Deist, right?

No, I believe it was written 30 years after.

Why?

 

[Acim]

Responded to OP first and then read entire thread (thru middle of p.10). Noticed a number of posters said things similar to my post (before I said it) and I rejoice.

Also noticed people were making OP about SF which I can understand why, but does seem to be general inquiry post in OP rather than personal inquiry (only). Thus, not really seeing reason to gang up on a person and make the thread about that, mostly.

But, allow me to contribute to that ganging up (LOL):

I don't want to get into it here, because that's not the topic of the thread. This thread isn't about me and I'm trying to keep it from being about me. What I personally believe now is irrelevant to the subject. I'm not trying to insult people, I'm just asking a question about how people believe in certain things I find quite fantastic. It's like if I started a thread about Young Earth Creationism. You can PM me, though. I am getting rather angry with the trolls ganging up on me and trying to make this thread about my personal beliefs/issues, because they have a personal issue with me that they need to keep to themselves. (Not that you're one of them.)

The highlighted part is what I'm addressing. First glance, it is personal if it is "that I find quite fantastic" is justification for the general inquiry. That's not actually noted in OP. And I'm fairly sure OP (persona) is not only one that finds those items fantastic. Still, that admission is interesting. Also interesting is "just asking a question how people believe in certain things" is giving some benefit of reinterpretation to OP, when OP says:

a) "Seriously. This perplexes me." - That could relate to the "I find quite fantastic" part in later admission, but it's actually in OP relating to the 'How can you believe things .... in the past (about Jesus) .... literally happened?' Thus, as I read it, questioning the integrity of believers.

b) "No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational." - Which is where I entered, and what I see the general inquiry getting at. I think it irrational to believe the past (actually) exists. For sure irrational to think the past is real. I don't think anyone actually believes the past is real, but do think many think it exists. How it exists - is the debate. I see it as in vein of imagination / illusion. Not sure exactly how others see it, but is the part where I think the intellectual debate is to be had. To draw out those assertions of what is the past, really, for you? Please be clear on that. For you might come across irrational or perplexing in ANYTHING you say about the past and what makes for 'reality.'

c) "If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here? Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd."

All these combined are not "just asking a question" but are making it same old same old matter of doubt that some to many have with depicted life of Jesus (in the past).

Yet, I took OP to be asking philosophical inquiry that ought to start with exploration on first five words, "How can you believe things." IMO, that's taken for granted, but in debate section, I'm not sure it's fair to take that for granted. Then add in the notion that these are things in the (distant) past, and the general inquiry that is in debate section really ought not to be getting free pass on the idea that we all agree on the past is "real." Not on my watch. Sorry, but you gotta bring more than your C- game to the debate table if asking such things.

Yet, making it about Christ, or things Christ has done, may do, can do, and I'm going to come from Gnostic understandings. All of which can readily dismiss the past as unreal and realize that I speak from Knowledge when I say Christ may do these things today through you (as Creation of God).

So, if we need to really unravel the perplexing nature of being Christ in this world, then perhaps a few stops along the way on the philosophical are the first steps to take. As in "how do you/we believe anything?" Let's explore that. Let's not be shy, or intellectually lazy. Then maybe we can get to the meat of the discussion in realizing what Christ can do right now, and/or is doing right now as if the past is literally (and I do mean literally) not holding Christ back in what can be done, and what must be done in giving people back to themselves (their divine selves).

 

[Milton Platt]

Like I said, they were the underdogs. Their version of the truth may not have been the "official" version of the truth, in their day. But many many people believed their story, they had a good jury of 12 disciples. Which is good enough for any court.

Not to point out the obvious, but eye witness accounts tend to be the most unreliable kind of evidence. That is why we end to lean more heavily on forensics in court. Countless people have been killed or imprisoned on mistaken eye witness accounts.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can't we study ancient Middle Eastern literary tropes? If it fits, it sits ...

That's because it's way easier than following the Golden Rule.


Jesus said that miracles don't validate anything.

They can be studied. But if one part of the Bible is a story, or a metaphor, and allegory, then why aren't other parts? People often defend the Bible by making such claims, but the logical conclusion of the argument is that there is no basis or guide for judging what is real and what isn't, which means if the Tower of Babel is a metaphor, then even the death and resurrection of Christ, one of the many of unlikely things to happen that are in the Bible, is also up for being interpreted as nothing more than a story.

For much more complete historical info, check out the books by Saint John the Apostle and his colleagues. Or explain why these eye-witness authors are not sufficiently credible.

They are very inconsistent in details.

then the LEGITIMATE truth of Christ would probably by now be indeed widespread

That is extremely unlikely as it wouldn't have spread and the European Pagan religions wouldn't have been challenged.

Well on the judgement day, God picks the Jury.

If god knows everything, why does he need a jury? If god promised the son will never be punished for the sins of the father, why does god need a jury?

lol..........You spectulaly fail to account for the countless MILLIONS who have had such DIRECT EXPEREINCES of a spirit world and who HAVE HAD right since we first stepped out the cave lol..... Convincing evidence..??.....Keep it real - what could be MORE convincing THAN the direct experience..??....

Millions of schizophrenic have experiences they think are real. Doesn't mean they are.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You just proved my point of you being ignorant ha ha.

No, you just proved you have no idea how a debate works. If you make a claim, and in this case it is the claim that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead, you have to provide evidence to support this claim. I don't have to disprove anything.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

None of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses. Your knowledge of modern scholarship is outdated.

The Gospel of Saint John was written during his own lifetime. There is no record indicating that any of his students/disciples or fellow clergy members ever questioned its validity or that the Church ever questioned it. Other than having been disputed by a few early heretics, It was never seriously questioned at all until the late 18th century, when new heretical scholars began challenging its authorship as a means of challenging its content. People of a faith that does not include believing in the Divinity of Jesus Christ or in God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have a particular issue with Saint John for having stated these things as directly as he did.

If any modern scholars have proven or disproven anything new, then tell me about it.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Well on the judgement day, God picks the Jury.

God alone is NOT judge?

That doesn't mean the people that wrote them weren't eyewitnesses.

Eyewitnesses to what?

And again, I find it odd that people harp on eyewitness accounts when Jesus was executed, in part, based on FALSE testimony...

If a WWII veteran wrote a memoir at this point in history would you doubt his account?

We have MANY people who claim war stories only to be discovered to be lying about their service...

Which means they remembered longer since they couldn't make actual note of things.

I read a book about religion and memory. In it, there was a study where a class experienced a fake gunman. TWO WEEKS LATER they could not be accurate in their description of events. TWO WEEKS!!!!!

With God all things are possible. All that is is a lack of faith.

And an apparent lack of psychological discoveries.

If you couldn't read or write how would you keep track of things?

The earliest "writing" involved keeping track of things, which meant everyone was having trouble with it, or they wouldn't have to revolutionize civilization just to do it.

No one doubts the Apostle Paul's existence, but he claims to have had an experience with the risen Christ. How do you say what's real and what's not?

How do you disentangle the facts from self-serving whining from Paul?

What evidence is there for Paul's existence as opposed to Christ's?

Apparently he wrote letters and Christ apparently wrote nothing.

I recall that Ganesha wrote down some Hindu scriptures. We have the scriptures that can be read today. Thus, Ganesha is real?

We're here.

According to my Christian ancestors, that's why we're here.

I also have Cherokee ancestry. This is what they said:

The Cherokee creation belief describes the earth as a great floating island surrounded by seawater. It hangs from the sky by cords attached at the four cardinal points. The story tells that the first earth came to be when Dâyuni'sï (Beaver's Grandchild), the little Water beetle came from Gälûñ'lätï, the sky realm, to see what was below the water. He scurried over the surface of the water, but found no solid place to rest. He dived to the bottom of the water and brought up some soft mud. This mud expanded in every direction and became the earth, according to the account recorded in 1900 by the Bureau of American Ethnology.

The other animals in Gälûñ'lätï were eager to come down to the new earth, and first birds were sent to see if the mud was dry. Buzzard was sent ahead to make preparations for the others, but the earth was still soft. When he grew tired, his wings dipped very low and brushed the soft mud, gouging mountains and valleys in the smooth surface, and the animals were forced to wait again. When it was finally dry they all came down. It was dark, so they took the sun and set it in a track to run east to west, at first setting it too low and the red crawfish was scorched. They elevated the sun several times in order to reduce its heat.

The story also tells how plants and animals acquired certain characteristics, and is related one of their medicine rituals. They all were told to stay awake for seven nights, but only a few animals such as owl and panther succeeded and they were given the power to see and prey upon the others at night. Only a few trees succeeded as well, cedar, pine, spruce and laurel, so the rest were forced to shed their leaves in the winter.

The first people were a brother and sister. Once the brother hit his sister with a fish and told her to multiply. Following this, she gave birth to a child every seven days and soon there were too many people, so women were then forced to have just one child every year.[2]

Some of my ancestors say a dirt man had sex with this trans sister. Some of my ancestors say a man hit his sister with a fish to get pregnant. I know that it was an ancient practice in some cultures, dunno if the Cherokee did it, to use animals such as frogs or use seeds such as wheat to tell if a woman was pregnant. (You peed on it and the frog laid eggs or the seeds sprouted if you were with child.) I have no evidence of dirt men having sex with trans sisters created from their ribs.

Which was the most accurate?

They can be studied. But if one part of the Bible is a story, or a metaphor, and allegory, then why aren't other parts? People often defend the Bible by making such claims, but the logical conclusion of the argument is that there is no basis or guide for judging what is real and what isn't, which means if the Tower of Babel is a metaphor, then even the death and resurrection of Christ, one of the many of unlikely things to happen that are in the Bible, is also up for being interpreted as nothing more than a story.

And while the Tower of Babel story is a metaphor, it does reference real things like Babylonian ziggurats. I think it's useful to try to read anything from the other civs around the Hebrews and use archaeology and stuff. I believe a lot of the bible may reference literal things, but use political and theological metaphors, much like how we do with modern figures. I suspect Grindewald will essentially be Trump in the newest Potterverse story arc, as JK Rowling is clearly upset, LOL.

The Gospel of Saint John was written during his own lifetime. There is no record indicating that any of his students/disciples or fellow clergy members ever questioned its validity or that the Church ever questioned it.

People have gone long periods of time not questioning lots of things.

 

[Kemosloby]

God alone is NOT judge?


Eyewitness to what?.

Eyewitnesses to the death and resurrection of Jesus.

God alone is not the judge

1 cor 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4So if you need to settle everyday matters, do you appoint as judges those of no standing in the church?

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Shadow Wolf;

That is extremely unlikely as it wouldn't have spread and the European Pagan religions wouldn't have been challenged.

Regarding the spread of Christs LEGITIMATE truth (as opposed to twisted religious truth) - then yes indeed HIS truth would have spread - DID spread - for that is precisely what He told us to do wasnt it..?...Find the Light within and share it freely with all around.....Check out the disciples - find stories of them from all over the world - from modern day Russia to India as well as the entire middle east Holy land of course and especially Africa , Ethiopia..... All this BEFORE Rome stepped in and manufactured a standard bible, REPLACED this ORIGINAL teaching with their bogus catholic doctrines...

Look Folks -this is a HUGE HUGE gap here - at least - THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE YEARS passes BEFORE the Roman MILITARY leader Constantine MANUFACTURED the NEW testamant bible !!! Nothing "spiritual" about that at all - purely POLITICAL - done purely for DOMINATION, even fully admitted that that was the intent !!

So for nearly four centuries there was NO "christian" religion as it is today - but rather it was HUNDREDS of new forming religions that each had a slightly different MIX of truth as each still clung to the false Hebrew god foundation, and did not understand Christ fully as they never witnessed Him OR disciple directly.. In the first part o fthis immediately folling my mates murder, they spread out as He had asked, went all over the place and so HIS ORIGINAL TRUTH spread with them...The ORIGINAL and eldest churches for example, Ehiopia, have an ORIGINAL bible that contains pretty much ALL the books of "herasy" that the MUCH LATER roman church will try to ban and eradicate...The original churchs had the ORIGINAL truth then and only later ROME came along and literally REPLACED IT and enforced their bogus doctrines in us all !! All those "pagan" religions as you call them - didnt even NEED to be "challenged" as you term it - they were already pretty much in line with His ORIGINAL truth - as in an energetic SPIRITUAL universe that could be DIRECTLY accessed - they just needed His Divine wisdom to show them how to attain it fully, as those you call pagan are actually NATURAL spiritual practices and so had a definate "head start" regarding understanding His truth, compared to the religious indoctrinated mind

Millions of schizophrenic have experiences they think are real. Doesn't mean they are.

lol - first let me tell you that actually we dont know ANYTHING AT ALL about either Consciousness or its so called "illnesses"...lol...Mental health "profession" is a joke in bad taste Im afraid - as ACTUALLY they have no clue at all as to how Consciousness or brain REALLY work, yet they pass themselves off as an "authority" that we should all listen to without question...Its a sham - simply can not be trusted as they ARE ignorant despite what they claim - arent they..??...

Second point here - these so called schizophrenics - do NOT share the SAME experiences - do they..?...And yet - with a legitimate SPIRITUAL experience - there will indeed be many many SIMILAR aspects - go check out such sites as Near-death.com or NDERF.org - check out scientific studies into such phenomena - and realise that YES INDEED there is a distinct set of criteria involved and defined stages of experience have been noted - things such as "tunnels of light" - that lead to an out of body experiences - meeting Divine spiritual entities - meeting deceased relatives etc etc - definate stages of experience are apparant -and also definate stages of the AFFECTS of those experiences in later normal life....ALL thess things are COMMON and repeatedly encountered by the SPIRITUAL experiencer - and are nothing at all like the so called illness... We really SHOULD quit listening to so called professionals who actually know nothing much at all - and instead rely on the direct EXPERIENCE itself which may indeed be perfectly valid and ONE DAY may be provable and understood by science - but for now - they really do NOT HAVE A CLUE Folks about consciousness, brain, spirit, existance or ANY of it - despite what they insist they are simply not a credable authority here at all as they do actually know very little indeed

Forever Catholic;

The Gospel of Saint John was written during his own lifetime.

lol - NOT the one found in your bible though - that one was not even written BY John AT ALL - not even written by ANYONE who knew John or Christ at all - not written in THAT form as YOU now have it, until as said Constantine had it MANUFACTURED TO ORDER for you and then forced it upon us all as the ONLY truth permitted

Now John himself - DID write an original gospel - one that he actually CLAIMS himself directly and states it is he himself now writing...And look, your bible version is NOT claimed by him at all, is it..?...NONE OF THEM ARE - and that is because none of them in the bible are the ORIGINAL gospels at all - but are as said bogus, manufactured to order to fit a specific stated intention to dominate you all under Romes authority...POLITICAL and not spiritual at all...

John DID write a gospel - very revealing intricately detailed account that tells Christ ORIGINAL truth plain for all to see.....For THAT gospel he wrote and the original legitimate truth it contains, your church made him a HERETIC and banned his gospel as herasy - they then MURDERED any and all who understood that truth and as said forced their own version upon us all..

See the blatant hypocrasy here...SAINT John they say so important they include his so called gospel as fully ordained canon -GODS WORD they say....But look close -saint John ALSO is now a HERETIC who wrote another CONTRARY gospel that is still banned As herasy even to this day - and so they say he is "satan spawn devil influenced" gnostic heathen who need to be silenced...

Again -we see we just can not trust these so called "authorities" so blindly - what they tell you is "gods truth found in the bible" turns out to be MANS TWISTED AGENDA given with a clearly stated intention to dominate through that religion....Just as He warned - the blind DO indeed lead the blind here - be warey Folks - dont swallow all they feed you so blindly

 

[LuisDantas]

If a WWII veteran wrote a memoir at this point in history would you doubt his account?

Not at all a good comparison.

WWII awareness was very well distributed from very early on and many people did in fact write their diaries and memories of it from day one - before it, even.

The disciples of the supposed historical Jesus had no obvious reason to make a point of waiting for so long after the fact, yet presumably they felt their message to be very important indeed.

Why would they wait? The most reasonable guess would be a perceived need to assure some adherence to doctrine that was previously unwritten. That it took so long for the need to make itself apparent hints that it may have changed goals and self-image as time went by.

IMO it also hints that Jesus was never meant to be taken as a literal, historical person.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

I think some people have a NEED to believe in this kind of thing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Regarding the spread of Christs LEGITIMATE truth (as opposed to twisted religious truth) - then yes indeed HIS truth would have spread

It's still very unlikely as religions typically do not spread past where they come from. In this case, Christianity was confined to Rome until Constantine, and after Rome was divided the Western part ceased being Roman and the Vatican ascended to power, and the Eastern part was just being dumb until it collapsed and was captured by the Ottomans (which was probably the best thing that could have happened to preserve the pre-Christian history and art--especially Greek--as the Byzantium empire itself was destroying it).

Look Folks -this is a HUGE HUGE gap here - at least - THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE YEARS passes BEFORE the Roman MILITARY leader Constantine MANUFACTURED the NEW testamant bible !!!

If Constantine manufactured the New Testament, then it means he manufactured the death and resurrection of Christ. And 300 years isn't really that big of a gap. We're only 60 years from America being 300 years old, and the Civil War was fought about 150 years ago.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Shadow Wolf;

If Constantine manufactured the New Testament, then it means he manufactured the death and resurrection of Christ.

Constantine DID manufacture the new testamant - literally so - but no, he did not manufacture the death and resurrection of the legitimate Christ - he did however change it and so manufacture the character we call "Jesus" who is based entirely on a real man - Yeshua who IS Christ

Constantine DID - for sure beyond any academic argument - gather together the leaders of over 100 different "religions" which each had SIMILAR but often also conflicting views of this truth...He did this to stop CIVIL UNREST and nto at all for any "spiritual truth"...lol...All these people under his domain all fighting and arguing THEIR truth - not his - despite what history books teach you, go look at FACTS with an unbiassed eye - this was a POLITICAL move fully explained AS a political agenda - the expressed intent was to FORCE them to conform to a single unified belief system - whchever truth it was didnt matter just as long as they ALL followed the same belief - just as long as the unrest stopped...

Over a HUNDRED new formed religions, all vying for spiritual authority over the people..Christ life fractured the Jewish tradition - but look - His death and resurrection, utterly breaks it apart !!

One single belief system became over a 100 new forming individual "cults" for lack of better terms...These then set about dominating each other until open hostility broke out, civil unrest in the streets...Constantine said sod that you will ALL play by MY rules, and so the bible NEW testamant is conceived..

The reason these sects were both similar yet conflicting is simple - until Christ there was only ONE GOD - the Hebrew god Yhvh they all know and had known for millenia.....They all fully believed THIS one was supreme.. Then Christ came teaching of Our Father - a NEW and SUPREME legitimate Divine source....He PROVED His claim in life by MIRACLES that look, NO priest of this Yhvh could even possibly match.....So, people began to believe in Him even in life, followed Him everywhere and the temple began to lose authority the solid faith became fractured...They MURDERED Him to stop this threat to power status and THEIR "god", - no doubt thought themselves very smart and clever in their underhand plot - but OOPS - He rose again and so proved His FULL DIVINITY for all to see

THIS then absolutely broke that Jewish faith...Now some OTHERS began to believe also...MANY MORE....But look, it was nearly too late...ALREADY DEAD - they could not now ask Him directly or learn from Him directly - they could not ask the disciples directly as they too off spreading the word....So those that stayed put, began to try to work it out for themselves - and remember they were all Jewish before - so they naturally clung to THAT foundation taught Yhvh is supreme so tried to make sense of all this FROM their perspective of heritage...You know, they BELIEVED their god was supreme - and so tried to make Christ fit with THAT preconceived truth..

Others though ALREADY KNEW what Christ meant - they listened IN LIFE and followed the disciples truths - there was conflict - lots of it....And still the ORIGINAL Jewish tradition - Pharisees - clung to power also - they all vyed for control and authority - for over 300 years this was so with as said over 100 established religions arising and all somewhat opposed to the others... lol - oh look - its STILL the same today lol...

Constantine got sick and tired of all that, so basically told these church leaders "bring ALL your sacred books here to this meeting" - Nicea around 325 ad.......he then said to them you had BETTER AGREE on a basic outline and truth that you ALL agree on....Pick your sacred texts that best represent that conformity of truth.....There started off as OVER 1000 individual manuscripts - each individual sect put forth that which they themselves considered sacred - and THAT was their ONLY INPUT into your new bible....

Constanitne then sent them away for a while and they had no further direct involvement - did NOT CHOOSE what was to be kept or discarded...For that task he told his own secretary /aide - a man named Eusibius if memory serves - and said to him to carefully read these sacred texts and to whittle them down to a complimentary narrative that gave us not hundreds of manuscripts - but just a handful, and specifically the "CANON GOSPELS"....Quite literally that aide and a team of scholars - went through each tome and "cut n paste" bits from each - MANUFACTURED a new version of truth from all that pre existing ORIGINAL truth - and carefully edited out anything that was not desirable such as LEGITIMATE spiritual truth of our Father

Thus Constantine MANUFACTURED the bible and it is a fraud - a twisting of truth and not original truth or intent at all..Thus the truth of Yeshua who is Christ became fictional character Jesus the Nazarene...Thus the so called disciple gospels contained in the bible are NOT CLAIMED by the disciples directly as they NEVER WROTE THEM and had no input at all as to what those canon gospels contain...None of the bible canon is ORIGINAL, and thus NONE of this was based on spiritual truth at all - not from Rome, as they wanted peace unchallenged in the lands they occupied and nothing more, and so manufactured and then used the religion as a tool for utter domination as was its stated intention right at the start

Once that powerbase was formalsed and in place they then went on MILITARY CAMPAIGNS to dominate entire regions, all under the disguise of this "religous truth" - and so they destroyed each and every opposing different truth - crusades - holy wars - inquistions - the world over they literally hunted down legitimate spiritual truths, lumped it altogether as "herasy" and so set about murdering and destroying it all - REPLACING It all with enforced and entirely bogus manufactured doctrines...

Thus they destroyed the legitimate truth of Christ and gave the world instead a bogus half truth of a part fiction character they call Jesus...All the way through it is the SAME set of leaders - pharisees - still clingin to the same old Hebrew god - and look - that one is NOT our Father at all and that truth is WHY all this has been done to us

 

[Muffled]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

I believe history does not record everything. Someone has been raised from the dead in our time. Did you hear about it? If you were paying attention to Christian communications you would have heard otherwise you wouldn't.

 

[Muffled]

I came to the conclusion a few years back that it's a psychological issue; one that's based upon an individual's egotistical approach to themselves, their families and ancestors.

Sounds mean, and I usually think that psychoanalysis of people I've met and haven't met is a kind of ***** act in most contexts, but this is a religious forum that should accommodate such a thing. And I think I remember see an actual psychological study years back that indicated such a thing.

Something along the lines of a self talk that sounds like: "my grandfather was a great man - how dare anyone call his beliefs false!"

I believe you need your head examined (just joking of course)

I believe I would like to see the logic behind that conclusion. I am willing to bet it is flawed.

 

[Muffled]

No you don't.

The idea that these "eyewitness accounts" are in any way verified is laughable - especially considering how heavily manipulated the texts have been over such a long time and through so many widely different historical contexts.

Imagine if these claims were to be tested in a court of law. It would never make it to court in the first place because the claims would be too outrageous to file in the first place.

I believe a court will often accept the witness of one person if the person is credible. However the Bible events have more than one witness in near agreement. The only way any witness can be verified is by other witnesses and sometimes historians don't even have that.

 

[Muffled]

The historians of the time totally missed these things as well. The reason the historians didn't record them is cause they never happened

I believe that is not proper reasoning. No one recorded what I did last summer and yet those events happened anyway.