How can you literally believe...

[LuisDantas]

Good question. But I think the vast diversity of denominations are evidence that a whole lot of people have different opinions as to the answer to that question.

That is an interesting question to consider on its own. What does originate th diversity of denominations exactly?

Divergence of belief and/or interpretations is of course a factor, but I don't think it is a very significant one. It seems to me that most people learn to avoid acknowledging or caring much about those diferences in nearly all situations.

The degree of confort with specific practice habits, flocks and priests seems to me to be a significantly greater factor.

 

[Segev Moran]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

The answer is quite simple. People are suckers!
We all have a need to know.. It is very hard to people admitting they don't know.
It took me quite a while to admit it.. To admit that I don't really know what happens when you die, How life were created (Not evolved, but rather the "ignition" of life)

It was only in the past recent years I became an atheist.. During the years, I could debate you for hours on why a God is something of a necessity in our existence.. because i thought I knew better.
As I grew older and developed my rational view of life, I slowly understood that it is okay not to know, not only that, It is idiotic to pretend I know things I don't really know!
I think that is the "problem" with most theists.. They are convinced they know the truth!
They just can't cross that bar of admitting that they can't really know ANYTHING about the "spiritual" world as there is not one convincing evidence that even suggests that the spiritual world (Including any notion of God or gods or whatever) exists.

There are people who will never be able to admit it.
There are people who will find it so hard admitting it that they will roll back to not admitting it.

Imagine how humble the world could be if people would admit they "Just don't know"!

Once you realize you don't really know, you start learning and investigating so you can know as much as possible.
And as you learn, you can only do so by examining what we are capable of examining.. so far, spirituality is not included in this group of things (And probably never will).

Cheers

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

How can you possibly know which parts to not take literally though?

Can't we study ancient Middle Eastern literary tropes? If it fits, it sits ...

The death and resurrection of Jesus is the foundation of Christianity and it is where Christianity stands or falls

That's because it's way easier than following the Golden Rule.

Conversely, if Jesus did rise from the dead then His life and teachings are vindicated.

Jesus said that miracles don't validate anything.

 

[Shad]

Yeah well, I'm sure we have 12 people on a jury because there were 12 disciples. That's how good the disciples were.

You missed my point about juries thus your claim is pure nonsense.

 

[Shad]

So Jesus and his crucifixion by Pontius Pilate were written about by Josephus (born 37 A.D), the Jewish historian and also Tacitus (born 56 A.D.), the Roman senator and historian.

Not contemporary sources. Tacitus is merely repeating the views of Christians not verifying the Christian Bible. Josephus repeating history of the time but does not verify the Bible merely Jesus died. You are conflating evidence for a historical Jesus as evidence for the religious Jesus.

For much more complete historical info, check out the books by Saint John the Apostle and his colleagues. Or explain why these eye-witness authors are not sufficiently credible.

None of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses. Your knowledge of modern scholarship is outdated.

 

[columbus]

Not contemporary sources. Tacitus is merely repeating the views of Christians not verifying the Christian Bible. Josephus repeating history of the time but does not verify the Bible merely Jesus died. You are conflating evidence for a historical Jesus as evidence for the religious Jesus.

Also, many other dramatic events described in the Gospels are not mentioned in the histories or anywhere else.
A simultaneous solar event and earthquake, on Passover, would have been a huge big deal. Portents like that meant a lot to the superstitious. But there is no mention of such a Passover, much less a date.
Tom

 

[Kemosloby]

You missed my point about juries thus your claim is pure nonsense.

Well on the judgement day, God picks the Jury.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Segev;

I think that is the "problem" with most theists.. They are convinced they know the truth!
They just can't cross that bar of admitting that they can't really know ANYTHING about the "spiritual" world as there is not one convincing evidence that even suggests that the spiritual world (Including any notion of God or gods or whatever) exists.

lol..........You spectulaly fail to account for the countless MILLIONS who have had such DIRECT EXPEREINCES of a spirit world and who HAVE HAD right since we first stepped out the cave lol..... Convincing evidence..??.....Keep it real - what could be MORE convincing THAN the direct experience..??....

Just because YOU PERSONALLY FAILED to ATTAIN that experience for the Self - does not mean that you are right and all those kazillion others are wrong...lol...and neither does it mean the experiences themselves are bogus - it simlpy means YOU FAILED in your search for the truth whereas others did not

There are people who will never be able to admit it.

Indeed there are self deluded people out there...lol...usually they have learned their delusion from OTHERS who professed to also "know truth" as a superior, and so tried to DEFINE what these are allowed to now Be - thus they ALL ended up deluded...Blind lead the blind as my mate warned

Imagine how humble the world could be if people would admit they "Just don't know"!

lol - imagine indeed - and indeed - tell us - HOW will you know this spiritual truth unless you EXPERIENCE it directly..??.. And look - UNTIL you do experience it - then all you say here is nothing but a GUESS - isnt it..?..It is YOU ACTAULLY who simply DO NOT KNOW - you just said so openly by your lack of experience in such matters lol - those with EXPERIENCE though - obviously DO know as they LIVED it...lol...Again - just because YOU fail does NOT mean all must now fail...lol...

And as you learn, you can only do so by examining what we are capable of examining.. so far, spirituality is not included in this group of things (And probably never will).

lol - ok lets go with that premise - and see clearly - if you ARE a SPIRIT - and you exist in a SPIRITUAL reality - then the ONLY thing you actually need to come to understand at all - is your own sweet Self....Hmm - just as Christ actually advised - seems to be VITAL

Do you perhaps see now why the religions failed you so badly..???.......They gave you THEIR truth perhaps - but they never gave you the eternal LIVING TRUTH of Who and What you ARE - and look - ALWAYS thus far - you have allowed such others to define you, and so you now have lost the Self entirely...Truth learned secondhand from a religion or priest or guru teacher is NOT legitimate spiritual truth at all - it is merely academic knowledge - a guess and an interpretation at someone ELSES truth perhaps - but for the legitimate eternal truth of Self, you will always need to EXPERIENCE IT DIRECTLY to understand - this of course, is Gnosis

 

[Shad]

Well on the judgement day, God picks the Jury.

Useless religious rhetoric.

 

[Etritonakin]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

The concept is really as simple as the difference between cassette tapes and compact disks.

Because we are not able to access and manipulate in certain ways, we tend to believe it can't be done. Lack of ability does not equate to impossibility.

That stuff happens -but it has not happened to you. You do not believe it, so other people must be wrong.

Miracles -one way or another -are an extremely big historical "thing" -but each individual has their own perspective.

Understanding (though perhaps as hidden data) and interface. That's all it takes.

 

[columbus]

I don't get along with people who hate me. I'm not you. Now I'm putting you on ignore. Permanently.

I find this unfortunate. When I first joined RF you were one of my favorites. You were a raging Satanist with all kinds of irreverent sarcasm. And at first, when you said that you were rejoining Mother Church, I was happy for you. The RCC has loads of issues, but it can be a wonderful supportive community. It seemed clear to me that you really needed one. I am sad that it didn't work out, but I have read thousands of your posts. I don't think that the Church is the problem.

The Church is a bit like my real mother in some ways. You can say unfair and mean things about me and get away with more than saying them about her. I will also tolerate a lot more from a stranger than a sibling, in certain ways. As a self described Catholic, I had a different attitude towards you than some heathen. Sorry that upsets you so much. We used to be friends.
Tom

 

[Nietzsche]

Well kinda Christianity was the biggest thing in the history of the world, was it not?

Ehh. For a while. Islam is giving it a run for its money, and arguably Christianity's foothold was less due to Christianity itself and more due to hijacking the Roman Aristocracy.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Nietzsche;

Islam is giving it a run for its money, and arguably Christianity's foothold was less due to Christianity itself and more due to hijacking the Roman Aristocracy

Ah very true indeed - BUT - there would be no world wide form of this religion at all - except FOR Rome "hijacking" it right at the start - manufacturing the bible - then forcing it down everyones thorat as "truth" and ONLY truth permitted

Thats a real pity - as WITHOUT this religion doing all that - then the LEGITIMATE truth of Christ would probably by now be indeed widespread, fully understood and so the world would be a much better place indeed - my Fathers Kingdom revealed here and now - everyone COULD have direct access to the Divine and spirit at ALL times of course, for we ARE Divine and an eternal spirit right now but just DONT REALISE IT - and it was this particular religion that set about PURPOSEFULLY hiding that truth from us all, replacing it with THEIR truth to ensure THEIR power and status above us....

 

[LuisDantas]

Ehh. For a while. Islam is giving it a run for its money, and arguably Christianity's foothold was less due to Christianity itself and more due to hijacking the Roman Aristocracy.

Do you often wonder if Christianity would have thrived quite as much and for so long as it did if Islam did not arise to mention it so often and present it as worth of attention? I do.

 

[Nietzsche]

Do you often wonder if Christianity would have thrived quite as much and for so long as it did if Islam did not arise to mention it so often and present it as worth of attention? I do.

They certainly didn't hurt its marketability.

 

[RedDragon94]

You think the Bible is a written, eyewitness account?

You think it isn't?

 

[RedDragon94]

Depends, can you assure me that the writers weren't burning the same bush that Moses seems to have?

What bush?

 

[Nietzsche]

What bush?

I was making a joke about the "Burning Bush" that Moses claims to have encountered and was implying Moses was incredibly high. Just, so, so high.

 

[LuisDantas]

You think it isn't?

I thought it was well established that the Gospels, at least, were written decades after the fact.

 

[RedDragon94]

I thought it was well established that the Gospels, at least, were written decades after the fact.

That doesn't mean the people that wrote them weren't eyewitnesses.