• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How can you literally believe...

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
If there were waves of priests hiring prostitutes, it could be reasonably assumed many of them did this because they were denied sex. Much as how we've seen the same destructive behavior from a number anti-gay priests/pastors who wound up getting caught with male prostitutes.
Exactly. The anti-homosexual pastors don't become heterosexual predators, they get caught with prostitutes. Heterosexual celibate priests were not turned into homosexual predators and pedophiles. They were homosexual predators and pedophiles who went into the priesthood either because it gave them access to their victims or in the hopes it would aid them in their effort to contain their predatory nature.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
It is very relevant, because it demonstrates there is nothing to support the existence of Jesus outside of the NT.

Between the Gospels and Paul's letters, there aren't even that many verses, in the NT, not even in the OT.

The NT is not an external record of itself. That is the whole point of having external records, so we can determine if there is evidence being made for or against a claim that is independent of the source making the claim.

being an essene and more specifically a naassene there would be no records as such.

Gnosticism from Jewish Encyclopedia.org
God is therefore called
V05p684003.jpg
("he spake,
V05p684004.jpg
= "enough"), and among the Naasenes 'Ησαιδαῖος =
V05p684005.jpg
plays, in fact, an important part (Hilgenfeld, "Ketzesgeschichte des Urchristenthums," p. 257). The spheres of the sun and moon are in the second of the seven heavens (Gen. R. vi. 5). The creation of light was especially puzzling, several kinds being distinguished (ib. iii. 4).

Naassenes - Wikipedia

and

Hippolytus V - The Refutation of All Heresies - Satan Worship

be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves.

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Instone-Brewer/prepub/Sanhedrin 43a censored.pdf

Nazarite = Separate

Numbers 6:2
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord:

Nazarite
= from the OT, Separate


ESSENES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The Naassene Fragment

syrian malabar nasrani
 
Last edited:

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
It is very relevant, because it demonstrates there is nothing to support the existence of Jesus outside of the NT.


There are 2 or 3 secular historians who mention Jesus, but that is irrelevant unless you can show that 4 men were not eyewitness to what they wrote. You can't just throw out something because it is in the Bible, without some reason, and all you have is you person bias.


Between the Gospels and Paul's letters, there aren't even that many verses, in the NT, not even in the OT.

There is for those who understand it.


The NT is not an external record of itself. That is the whole point of having external records, so we can determine if there is evidence being made for or against a claim that is independent of the source making the claim. [/QUOTE]

Then believe the external records of Titicus and Josephus and there is one more , but I don't remebver his name. Now if you refuse to accept what they say without a good reason, you are a hypocrite.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
We've got more copies of the Bible than the Iliad and those myths.

Popularity nor an on going effort to produce copies are not criteria to show if something is true or not. You merely think preservation means it is true. The same argument can be made for the Quran.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Popularity nor an on going effort to produce copies are not criteria to show if something is true or not. You merely think preservation means it is true. The same argument can be made for the Quran.
The Quran wasn't preserved through adversity.
 

V lad i mir

Member
How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.
If we do not know something, this is not mean, this not exist. couple hundreds years ago airplane flights was impossible... now we bring dead back to life( with some exceptions yet). why not possible to instantly heal the person, if you know how to get primary info of body from DNA? people can change the weather now, very possible people was able to do it in past . what is wrong with water walking, if you know what levitation is? And remember - Christians killed a lot of extraordinary people in mid centuries and before. Irrational - is our thinking process now. we don't except anything we don't know,we need evidence and scientific proof. This why we have nothing. By the way - I'm not Christian.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, there are real studies and real evidence of the potential psychological damage of celibacy. And since you want call the idea of repression "pseudoscientific nonsense," do enjoy a serving of crow:
Try to Forget: The Psychology of Repression
Their are entire journals, conferences, and other academic "outlets" devoted to parapsychology and other nonsense. It is basically impossible to measure psychological damage, as 1) the debate over whether or not "measurement" is even possible in the behavioral, psychological, and social sciences remains disputed as it has since the infamous meetings over the subjects in the 30s, 2) even within psychiatry, there exists no method for even determining whether or not particular mental illnesses exist as such (rather than symptom clusters defined into existence as a singular pathology), let alone some way to determine "damage" to mental health by anything, and 3) "repressed urges" relies on the pseudoscientific nonsense of arm-chair psychoanalysis that serious researchers in clinical psychology, neuroscience, and psychology abandoned decades ago.
I can easily find (and have found) sources that speak of negative psychological effects of, and damage from, pornography, celibacy, violence in video games, etc. Some of this research at least relies on more defensible theories of mind & cognition than "repression". Some of it is even decent. None of it shows much, particularly if one wishes to compare the research showing that pornography and/or promiscuity causes damage to mental health vs. the research that celibacy does. The former research is far more plentiful than the later, and vastly superior when it comes to evidence. This doesn't make it accurate or good, but it does negate the claims that research indicates celibacy is harmful (as does research opposing the comparatively small number of studies concluding thus).
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Which has what do with what exactly? I brought up nothing that is parapsychology.
Repression is a notion from psychoanalysis, the pseudoscientific nonsense speculated into existence by Freud. Parapsychology research has yielded in some cases superior evidence and at least usually seeks to test empirical phenomena that can be (mostly) objectively defined in such a way as to be scientifically tested. Testing the damage that celibacy does to mental health via "repressed urges" demands that one assume the existence of a theoretical concept dreamt up by arm-chair psychoanalysis in terms of metrics defined into existence.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Repression is a notion from psychoanalysis, the pseudoscientific nonsense speculated into existence by Freud.
I haven't even brought up psychoanalysis, and the idea of repression isn't confined to or exclusive to psychoanalysis. I even gave you a link showing it's even used in cognitive psychology, and, of course, cognitive-behavioral models are the current dominant models utilized in psychology.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I haven't even brought up psychoanalysis, and the idea of repression isn't confined to or exclusive to psychoanalysis. I even gave you a link showing it's even used in cognitive psychology, and, of course, cognitive-behavioral models are the current dominant models utilized in psychology.
It isn't used in cognitive psychology in any sense that relates to your posts; your brought up psychoanalysis by referring to a concept that was developed entirely within psychoanalysis; you provided a link that discussed repression in terms of Freudian psychoanalysis (which included a section on how this notion fails in certain senses in cognitive psychology) ; your link gave a description of repression that is irrelevant here, as "motivated forgetting", according to your source, is unsupported and the entirety of repression is at best described within cognitive psychology literature as "simply forgetting something...unpleasant" ("The proposition of motivated forgetting, where the motivation is both unconscious and aversive, has never been demonstrated in controlled research. For the cognitive psychologist, repression is simply forgetting something that is unpleasant. Thus studies have been done where experimenters are nasty (vs nice) to people who are trying to learn things and later it was demonstrated they remembered less when the experience was negative as opposed to positive").
In short, you claimed that an unscientific, armchair psychoanalytic notion (repression) has been empirically shown to cause "harm" in ways that could only be defined into existence via methods that lack even the sort of rigor and validity used in parapsychology studies and similar nonsense, and then linked to some popular source in which "repression" was defined first and foremost via Freudian psychoanalysis and then how this conceptualization utterly fails to find empirical support and to the extent it exists within cognitive psychology literature it is simply a memory issue.
You have not demonstrated that there even exists anything remotely like the evidence for e.g., the harmful psychological effects of promiscuity, pornography, etc., as there exists for celibacy. You haven't really even demonstrated that said research exists in any form whatsoever beyond perhaps a few non-scholarly sources and some vague, isolated (limited) studies.
You have instead relied on components of non-scientific, outdated psychoanalytic theory, linked to an article on Freudian psychoanalytic theory which describes how this component of psychoanalytic theory (Freudian or post-Freudian) empirically fails and isn't used in cognitive psychology, and then claimed that your link shows how repression is somehow relevant in actual cognitive psychology.
Real scientific literature on memory is so vastly more complicated and so far beyond simplistic nonsense like "repression" that entire types of memory have proliferated into the hundreds and it is difficult to demarcate via behavioral or neuroscientific experiments what the nature of which kinds of memories is. To argue that celibacy is psychologically harmful because of some kind of repression brings us back before even behaviorism, all the way back to penis envy and other bunk proliferated long before it would have been possible for either modern psychiatry or cognitive psychology to exist in order to describe the harms of celibacy.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
I believe that is not proper reasoning. No one recorded what I did last summer and yet those events happened anyway.

Did you do miracles, hang on a cross and cause the sky to go dark as well as cause an earthquake at the time of your death?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We've got more copies of the Bible than the Iliad and those myths.
Not really. I'm sure you meant, rather, that we have more textual attestation to the bible than for the Iliad and those myths, in the sense that most ancient texts survive only thanks to a few manuscripts from the middle ages whereas we have thousands upon thousands of early biblical manuscripts. However, the survival of manuscripts isn't the only form of attestation. The iliad and similar "historical" accounts are attested to in numerous other manuscript traditions, such as those of Plato, which predate the NT. The OT, also, is in general poorly attested to. Neither the OT nor the NT survive in as many kinds of forms as do the Homeric myths (e.g., epigraphy, numismatic remains, etc.).
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
Easy to paste in a link on allegations of sexual abuse, but if that's your best argument, you're coming up way short. How do the numbers compare with allegations of sexual abuse in public education, workplace environments, and basically the rest of the world? There are sinners in the Church and sinners everywhere, but where do abuses occur most, and where do they occur least? I'll get you started with one basic fact, which you can check out if you want. The highest rate of sexual abuse of minors involves married men with children. Catholic priests are not in that category.

- Oh, and I forgot to mention youth sports programs. Check that one out.

Can you provide a source supporting your "married men are the greatest threat to children" implication?

There is only one current organization that is currently undergoing a
Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse: The Catholic Church.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Can you provide a source supporting your "married men are the greatest threat to children" implication?
That's my experience. The biggest problem with sex abuse is step family. Vulnerable youngsters are put into intimate contact with older people, without the protection of the incest taboo.
There is only one current organization that is currently undergoing a Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse: The Catholic Church.
That is mainly because it is an institution. Not because priests are more of a danger individually than step family or "mom's boyfriend ".
Tom
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
Pedophilia tendencies and orientation does not suggest psychopathic tendencies, nor are they related or similar.

Please point out where I said that they were.

I said "that the parish was a conveniently accommodating place for people with literally psychopathic tendencies". That can be a mutually exclusive statement to reminding ourselves that the Catholic Church also doubles as the world's largest and most unconscionable pedophile ring.

They also abuse humans of all ages with their abhorrent teachings and by deluding their sense of critical analysis.

They're also the richest, most powerful organization on the face of the earth.

They're also directly responsible for the genocide of certain indigenous people.

What's not to hate?

At least they're not blowing people up, videotaping sawing people's heads off for the sole intention of uploading it onto the internet for everyone to see and terrorizing the world. So they got that going for them, which is nice.
 
Top