• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How can you literally believe...

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
a mandate of celibacy that may be a primary root-cause behind most of it

Celibacy is not without its benefits, especially in regards to religion and spirituality.

I am aware this happens often during certain rituals and purification rites where devotees forsake sexual behavior for weeks or months at a time. Even various pagan and LHP rituals call for "not spilling thy seed" for a set number of days or weeks, often as the days lead up to some climactic sexual rite where the period of celibacy is broken, making the sacrifice all the more worth it.


It is difficult to imagine priests abstaining from sexual behavior for many years, even a lifetime, and the conflict within the devout celibates, the temptation to just let go and defy their obligation. As someone once told me...

"those purest are most susceptible to impurity".


Obviously many can not handle celibacy, and obviously not all humans are as sexually endowed or attractive as others, and thus would likely not experience as much sex anyways (though celibacy also forbids pleasuring yourself sexually), but I still find the practice of celibacy rather commendable. It is a form of self control and discipline, and devotion towards something one has committed themselves to. Considering my own propensity towards behavior contrary to celibacy, I can respect it as the sacrifice it is, and as one of many ways to strengthen one's spiritual-religious system, or one's connection to one's God(s).

 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
There are plenty of studies that show the potential psychological damage of celibacy, including acting out in inappropriate ways to satisfy repressed urges.

Which in my eyes makes it all the more commendable when successfully demonstrated by devout priests (or whoever) who experience this form of sacrifice and possess the self control and discipline necessary to follow through with this kind of commitment. I do not need to practice it myself, or even encourage it, to feel a particular respect towards those who do engage in celibacy.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Which in my eyes makes it all the more commendable when successfully demonstrated by devout priests (or whoever) who experience this form of sacrifice and possess the self control and discipline necessary to follow through with this kind of commitment. I don't need to practice it myself, or even encourage it, to feel a particular respect towards those who do engage in celibacy.
I don't find it admirable. No more admirable than someone who chooses to get circumcised or fast for many days. If they want to, I won't stop them or try to, but I find devotion to myths to be folly.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
I don't find it admirable. No more admirable than someone who chooses to get circumcised or fast for many days. If they want to, I won't stop them or try to, but I find devotion to myths to be folly.

Devotion to myths, eh? Not devotion to personal development, devotion to their culture and people, devotion to particular areas of human Nature? No?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?
I don't. But I can understand (I think) something of how others might. After all, most of use have beliefs about the nature of reality based upon our trust in so-called experts and authority. We may even accept positions/claims that would have seemed to us to be patently absurd were it not the position of most or all specialists in relevant fields. Mathematicians, for example, inform us that there exist infinitely many different infinities. Thermodynamics relies on the fact that the probability of randomly picking any rational number from any interval on the real number line is 0, despite the fact that the rational numbers are infinitely close to one another (there are no "gaps" for any other numbers to exist within, despite the fact that physics and mathematics demands that in these non-existent gaps there must be so vastly many numbers that the set of rational numbers is negligible and can be ignored). High energy physicists, particle physics, theoretical physicists, etc., tell us that most if not all particles that make up all physical reality are virtual and that there is no real way to determine whether a fundamental process or physical system is virtual or "real" (or whether physics describes any objective reality at all).Biologists have generally shunned attempts to define their own field in such a way as to define "life" that would allow any scientific discrimination from a living system that has died vs. a non-living system, let alone what it means for a system to have been living, than to have died, than to be a living system again (physicists and biologists who attempt to define what it means to be a living system in a scientific, systematic way have tended to make clear that this demands something beyond known physical laws). Literature on fundamental physics yields what one would likely dismiss as pseudoscience were it not published in peer-reviewed journals by eminent physicists (and often in preeminent science journals) :

"We now know that the moon is demonstrably not there when nobody looks."
Mermin, N. D. (1981). Quantum mysteries for anyone. The Journal of Philosophy, 78(7), 397-408.

"So, what is the message of the quantum?...the distinction between reality and our knowledge of reality, between reality and information, cannot be made."
Zeilinger, A. (2005). The message of the quantum. Nature, 438(7069), 743-743.

“The only reality is mind and observations”
Henry, R. C. (2005). The mental universe. Nature, 436(7047), 29-29.

We are told things such as that the cosmos consists of many more dimensions than could be possible (but is made possible by mathematical trickery), that split hairs split the universe, that there exist universes in which laws of physics differ and within which realms of fantasy quite literally exist, all within mainstream physics literature. Solutions to Einstein's equations allow logical paradoxes. Attempts to rid mainstream theory from appearing to suggest design result in fantastical proposals requiring mathematical theory that nobody has yet to formulate.
Schrödinger once wrote that history is the most fundamental science. I don't agree, but it is not hard to see why a physicist in his position would seek refuge in history after the entirety of the most fundamental and oldest sciences was not (as expected) finally finished but instead collapsed utterly (along with most of the mainstream conception of mathematics, formal systems, logic, etc.).
Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed?
This perplexes you because you are biased and prejudiced by modernity. In antiquity, even the most literate scholars distrusted texts. Nobody really thought magic, miracles, etc., to be anything other than obviously real components of the natural world. The founders of history in antiquity treated myth as a legitimate historical source, described historical events in ways that included divine actions, miracles, magic, etc., and ascribed divinity to historical figures. Also, the NT largely predates the emergence of Christianity (in particular, Paul's letters date from a period in which the religious movement was a Jewish movement). It isn't that nobody else noticed, just that nobody cared until enough followers of Jesus came to be for the Jesus sect to be taken seriously.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are plenty of studies that show the potential psychological damage of celibacy, including acting out in inappropriate ways to satisfy repressed urges.
There exist plenty of studies affirming pseudoscientific nonsense like "repression". Like the armchair psychology of such Freudian-based nonsense, there exists much "scholarly" literature on parapsychology, neuroquantology, and general mystic nonsense. The difference is that there is actually more empirical evidence in support of such nonsense than for the repression you describe.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
There exist plenty of studies affirming pseudoscientific nonsense like "repression". Like the armchair psychology of such Freudian-based nonsense, there exists much "scholarly" literature on parapsychology, neuroquantology, and general mystic nonsense. The difference is that there is actually more empirical evidence in support of such nonsense than for the repression you describe.
No, there are real studies and real evidence of the potential psychological damage of celibacy.
And since you want call the idea of repression "pseudoscientific nonsense," do enjoy a serving of crow:

Try to Forget: The Psychology of Repression
For the cognitive psychologist, repression is simply forgetting something that is unpleasant. Thus studies have been done where experimenters are nasty (vs nice) to people who are trying to learn things and later it was demonstrated they remembered less when the experience was negative as opposed to positive.
...
Another study showed good evidence of repression: mothers who had just given birth were asked to report the quality and quantity of pain that they had just endured. They were then asked to do this again some months later and they all reported less pain.

Another descriptive theory for repression is that it’s just a special case of retrieval failure. Maybe memories are not held back by a censor but are just hard to reach due to a lack of relevant retrieval cues. Anxiety may play a role in this, perhaps blocking refilling or impeding retrieval cues, but it is not the cause. This retrieval-blocking interpretation of repression is part of a more general approach.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
The nature becomes the thought
The thought becomes the word

Attainment of it is impossible


with love all things are possible and understandable.


“This world spins from the same unseen forces that twist our hearts.”
Cloud Atlas - David Mitchell
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
a mandate of celibacy that may be a primary root-cause behind most of it
I have seen no evidence whatsoever that celibacy turns non-homosexual ephebophiles into homosexual ephebophiles and even less that it turns non pedophiles into pedophiles.
 

PeteC-UK

Active Member
Hi Folks...

ForeverCatholilc;
It was clearly illustrated earlier in this thread that the NT was written before 70 AD. Research it further to learn, if you haven't already, that it can only be disputed by rejecting the truth of the bible altogether.

Was it..?..We must have missed that..lol.... Actually what happened earlier this thread , was I my Self proved to you specifically that your canon gospels are fraud - proved both by the canon itself and what it actually says, and proved as well by actual history and the process whereby that new part was revealed to the world by the catholic religion, which itself fully admits all that I say... And when you heard all that, then you decided to stop speaking about it to me as you could not refute the truths I showed you...So NO my friend, you did not clearly demonstrate the canons origin or authenticity - you gave up on that as I proved you to be wrong on every point...Care to try again..??.. All you really said - essentially - is the old "christian" line - if it aint in the bible then it aint gods word nonesense - you can try that defense every time if you insist, but it simply will never make you right, as actual historic facts can not now be altered, and your canon DID come about EXACTLY as I said it did earlier...To simply state the bible disagrees, and to simply state the bible alone is "truth" is more than a little - naive - foolish - closed minded - and you will never get your legitimate truth THAT way...

Now you wish to try again to prove your case, but sorry my friend - your position is wholly untenable as indeed your canon is a fraud, easily proved, fully admitted even by the catholic authority......You are right in just one aspect here - in that ONLY the indoctrinated mind believes the religious claims - those without that religious bias can see truth and manipulation plain as day...As advised before - wise up - wake up - you have been misled....

He did meet Jesus. Spent time with Jesus. He wrote about it a few times in his letters, such in Galatians 1:11-12 -- "I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."

COMPLETLY FALSE !!! What ACTUALLY happened to him was that he claims to have a direct spiritual experience with Christ - then he goes away for some years - then he comes back and LEARNS FROM THE APOSTLES !!! He NEVER met the Christ in the flesh - not once let alone "many times" - and his single spiritual encounter was very quick and a single event where my mate spoke just a bare handful of word sto him....lol....This here - yet more twisted truth Im afraid..You would LIKE it to be that PAul was close to Christ -you would LIKE it ot be that Paul knew Christ intimately - but sorry - Paul knew some DISCIPLES perhaps - but NOT Christ !!!

Look Folks - this Saul /Paul - not as crucial as some may think..I tell you straight - what he claims happened to him - I ALSO CLAIM happened to ME DIRECTLY - go figure - except I will tell you mine is not vague or fleeting and momentary as his was - but prolonged, continuous, happens multiple times even to this day....I dont doubt he had a spiritual event happen - but dont try to twist that into Christ revealed truth to him directly as simply it DID NOT HAPPEN THAT WAY - Paul himself tells us he spent YEARS AND YEARS learning all this new stuff !!.. Immediately he has this experience, and he leaves for Damascus - spends like 3 years there thinking things through...Then he goes back seeks out Simon Peter and spends time learning from him and with James, the brother of Yeshua....Next he goes away again for FOURTEEN YEARS - gathers a few of his own followers then goes back to Jerusalem, and pronounces his "new gospel"....At first he cant decide WHOS side hes on and at first denies Peter in public and avoids associating with true Christians..He is very - two faced - not authentic..he is obviously very confused, and spends a great deal of effort to convince us he is legitimate having a legitimate spiritual conversin -but Im not so sure -having EXPERIENCED the same -Im just not so sure about him at all - but I can tell you, he is just not confident of anything he says and that is because his "truth" comes PRIMARILY from MEN and not form spirit at all.....

Just read his account and it is obvious and apparant.. if he had any spiritual revelation at all, then it was that fleeting one on the road where Christ gave hardly any interaction and basically told him directly, to "stop being a dick to my people" - I paraphrase but essentially that is all Christ ever told him directly - so please - do NOT try to tell us that he met Christ MANY times - do NOT try to tell us Christ revealed this truth directly to him - as he himself says it simply never happened that way at all....MEN gave him knowledge - he went away and thought about it - came back with his own version of that truth - as with them all he couldnt quite get past the old Hebrew god and so his truth remained anchored to that deciept still - and its still like it today....lol...WRONG GOD Folks - hence all this none stop confusion ;)
 

PeteC-UK

Active Member
Hi Folks...

Now to the rest - specifically - the moral corruption that is overwhelmingly evident in this particular religion - and has been all the way through...Not many will be aware perhaps - but actually all this history of the roman catholic church, was PROPHESISED by tall the disciples as they shared a spiritual revelation of things to come....They then present their vision to Christ for an explanation - and He is most disappointed in them - tells them directly that because they fail to understand Him, then this evil corrupt institute will be their legacy to the world...It will lead many MANY directly AWAY from the Father and He tells them directly He is ashamed at what they will do "in His name".....here - see it for yourselves as recorded by Judas directly..... Pity some of it is missing now - destroyed BY the religion, hunted down and eradicated to hide the truth..All we have now is incomplete - but still, there is more than enough to see the truth of things...Look :

They said, “We have seen a great house with a large altar in it, and twelve
men [....] - they are the priests, we would say [...] and a name; and a crowd of people is waiting
at that altar, until the priests [ ...] and receive the offerings. But we kept waiting.”

Jesus said, “What are the priests like?” They said, “Some [...] two weeks; some sacrifice their own children, others their
wives, in praise and humility with each other; some sleep with men and children; some are involved
in slaughter; some commit a multitude of sins and deeds of lawlessness. And the men who stand
before the altar invoke your name, and in all the deeds of their deficiency, the sacrifices are brought to completion [...].”
After they said this, they were quiet, for they were troubled



OOooooooo - that doesnt sound very nice does it..??....But look - that DOES sound - EXACTLY like this catholic church - doesnt it..??.. Pity some is missing - but see clearly - a SHARED SPIRITUAL REVELATION - that eleven of the disciples have...Judas writing, will have his own vision also explained later, but not so important for this discussion here..Th e11 see this vision of a temple - with 12 priests (disciples) - who all pronounce the SAME NAME (literally CATHOLIC by definiton) - they draw a large crowd to them and await their sacrifices......

What are the priests like Christ asks - and they say they are EVIL INCARNATE - look - they SACRIFICE even their children and wives in PRAISE OF EACH OTHER - they are HOMOSEXUAL and PEADOPHILE by nature !! They bring SLAUGHTER and a multitude of lawless acts all in the name of Christ !! Sounds just like the catholic church -and we know already it IS the catholic church - they say so clearly -12 priests start it off, as the religion is wholly based on the disciples themselves and they all chant the same neame, means for sure it is a universal religion and that by definiton is the catholic religion...

Next we see description of the very things this church is ACTUALLY HISTORICALLY RENOWNED FOR - as in "they praise each other" and sacrifice all else, means that all that they do is done for the benefit of church power and status and indeed history proves this correct as they literaly FORCED this religion upon all the western world, all done for thier own power and status and domination over us.. They bring slaughter and a multitude of lawless acts to accomplish this domination - literally slaughtering by the millions any and all who dared disobey them.. They are indeed renowned for being both homosexual and peadophilic - no other religion or institute seems to have anything like so many sexual scandals as THIS church does and they keep happening time after time after time...there IS something sexually deviant about the catholic doctrine, clearly so and this was indeed noted BY the disciples themselevs as they share this vision of the church to come......

See now - this vision Folks - is now TWO THOUSAND YEARS OLD - and yet it is recorded for all to see clearly - the church they envision will be a church that is renowned for ALL those things - and as actual history unfolds right before our eyes even modern day, - ESPECIALLY modern day, - so we see that yes indeed the catholic church IS renowned for all these things as predicted by that spiritual vision... Even today it is happening - 2000 years ago those 11 disciples said the church would be renowned for sexual scandal - and here we now live through its proof...The other crimes are equally obvious - all as said - done "in the name of Christ"....This vision IS the catholic church - but if any doubt that - then just look at Christs response and interpretation :

Truly I say to you, all the priests who stand before that altar invoke my name. Again I say to you, my name has been written on this
[...] of the generations of the stars through the human generations. And they have planted trees without fruit, in my name, in a shameful manner.”

Jesus said to them, “Those you have seen receiving the offerings at the altar - that is who you are. That is the god you serve, and you are those twelve men you have seen. The cattle you have seen brought for sacrifice are the many people you lead astray before that altar. [...] will stand and make use of my name in this way, and generations of the pious will remain loyal to him. After him another man will stand there from the fornicators, and another will stand there from the slayers of children, and another from
those who sleep with men, and those who abstain, and the rest of the people of pollution and lawlessness and error, and those who say, ‘We are like angels’; they are the stars that bring everything to its conclusion. For to the human generations it has been said, ‘Look, God has received your sacrifice from the hands of a priest’—that is, a minister of error !

But it is the Lord, the Lord of the universe, who commands, ‘On the last day they will be put to shame.’”

This vision IS the catholic church itself as Christ just said...The priests ARE the disciples.. The "cattle bought to the alter" are the people WHO WILL BE LED ASTRAY BEFORE THAT GOD !! He says specifically, they have "planted trees without fruit" in HIS NAME and He is ASHAMED of them !!! He says many others will follow in their place and continue the evil corruption - pope after pope after pope and ALL from the same tainted evil stock He says !!! And look closeley Folks - He tells us -THIS religion will END THE WORLD !!! THEY bring everything to its CONCLUSION - an all out RELIGIOUS WAR going by the situation we have today in OUR world -wouldnt you agree..??..

Look - that "god" received your sacrifice via the hands of a priest He said - and that is the first base error...NO PRIEST clergy church or middleman intermediary ever needed at all -despite what THEY insist - the religion is OBSOLETE to the truth of Our Father ...But look - on that final day when it seems all is lost here - He promises - Our Father shall deliver His truth and put this religion to its shame for all to see...

As always for those with ears to hear....
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I have no doubts some would be destroyed. But we have sufficient evidence of the Pharaohs and many of their names, we know Alexander the Great conquered massive portions of Europe, Africa, and Asia, and even scraps of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle have survived. But there are no external sources to account for this Jesus Resurrection.

Irrelevant, unless you know you hve all of othe necessary records. There are more records of the NT(24,000+) than the records for thoe yu just mentioned.

The NT is an external record of eyewitnesses. Do you have any external evidence they were lying or embellishing the accounts they wrote about.
 

PeteC-UK

Active Member
Hi Folks...

Omega;
The NT is an external record of eyewitnesses. Do you have any external evidence they were lying or embellishing the accounts they wrote about.

What..?...The nt is an "eye witness" account..??..You are joking right..??...if not then you are absolutely 100% plain wrong there... Lying and embellishing accounts..???....lol...Please go back and read my previous posts for ample proof of this - or as said - that prophesy above that has already come true shows us the truth of this religion and its manipulation of us..
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I have seen no evidence whatsoever that celibacy turns non-homosexual ephebophiles into homosexual ephebophiles and even less that it turns non pedophiles into pedophiles.
For starters, pedophilia and homosexuality are two separate orientations. As for heterosexuals engaging in homosexual sex, prison is a good example of when this happens. When people are denied sex, they may do things they normally wouldn't do.
There is an argument to be made that Christianity is the biggest thing in the history of the world.
Appeals to popularity is not a valid argument. All it proves is how popular something is, and nothing more.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Irrelevant, unless you know you hve all of othe necessary records.
It is very relevant, because it demonstrates there is nothing to support the existence of Jesus outside of the NT.
There are more records of the NT(24,000+) than the records for thoe yu just mentioned.
Between the Gospels and Paul's letters, there aren't even that many verses, in the NT, not even in the OT.
The NT is an external record of eyewitnesses. Do you have any external evidence they were lying or embellishing the accounts they wrote about.
The NT is not an external record of itself. That is the whole point of having external records, so we can determine if there is evidence being made for or against a claim that is independent of the source making the claim.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
For starters, pedophilia and homosexuality are two separate orientations
Well, I wouldn't call pedophilia an orientation. But, even given that generous description, I separated them.

As for heterosexuals engaging in homosexual sex, prison is a good example of when this happens. When people are denied sex, they may do things they normally wouldn't do.
I almost addressed prison as an example of how different Priestly celibacy is from a situation that creates a sexuality of convenience. Prisoners are not just mentally denied sex via oath, they are denied physical access to their preferred gender. Priests are not. Were we discussing an epidemic of Priests having adulterous relationships or patronizing prostitutes, the issue of celibacy would be relevant.

As it stands, there is no evidence that a vow of celibacy can move a heterosexual man into homosexual ephebophilia or a non-pedophile into pedophilia.

Appeals to popularity is not a valid argument. All it proves is how popular something is, and nothing more.
Did you even care to read what I responded to?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Well, I wouldn't call pedophilia an orientation. But, even given that generous description, I separated them.
It often is considered an orientation, as it is an inert attraction towards a specific group, in this case, prepubescent children.
I almost addressed prison as an example of how different Priestly celibacy is from a situation that creates a sexuality of convenience. Prisoners are not just mentally denied sex via oath, they are denied physical access to their preferred gender. Priests are not. Were we discussing an epidemic of Priests having adulterous relationships or patronizing prostitutes, the issue of celibacy would be relevant.
Priests are denied all forms of sex. If there were waves of priests hiring prostitutes, it could be reasonably assumed many of them did this because they were denied sex. Much as how we've seen the same destructive behavior from a number anti-gay priests/pastors who wound up getting caught with male prostitutes.

Did you even care to read what I responded to?
Yes: There is no argument to be made in regards to how popular or widespread something like a religion is.
 
Top