How can you literally believe...

[Shadow Wolf]

All of that did happen in time, but of course it was much slower to spread than it would be today with mass media. Another thing to consider is that the great majority of people back then were illiterate, Many, many, many did communicate these things, but could only do it orally.

Many cultures were writing then, and had plenty of "smart people" to travel and record such things. Yet, given the abysmal lack of such documentation, this clearly did not happen.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

You're right, except that they were not capable of pushing out the Romans.

So, with faith the size of a mustard seed, I can tell an entire mountain to get up and relocate, but getting the Romans to go do something useful with their time, that's just unbelievable?

You killed someone, not the knife which was only the means you used to do the killing. But I don't see any analogy with the issue of the Primal Cause having caused the Universe to exist. Care to point it out to me?

I only meant technically it's the mechanism that does the actual work. I could have an automatic knife and the person still dies, WITHOUT an intelligence behind it.

Regarding gods and messiahs which you attribute to woodwork

Sorry, Southern gal phrase. It's likening a group to a bunch of termites crawling out of the wooden walls of the house.

The Messiah cannot be an individual; the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies."

I'm fine with the idea that the Messiah as written up was for a nation, not an individual. However, that won't stop nations NOR individuals from thinking they are God or God's gift to the Earth or something. Like I said, it's seasonal ... give it a few months and they go find something else to do.

 

[Altfish]

Not in Hebrews. Definitions are not open to interpretation.

OK, I'll believe you.

Before

So some of the verses in Genesis got it wrong then

There is no evidence of spiritual truth that you will accept. Unless you are converted, you CAN'T understand spiritual truth. What I believe is foolishness to you(I Cor 2:14),

I will accept evidence, your definition of evidence may be a lot lower than mine.

Prayer to prove prayer is utterly useless. Non-Christians do not know how to pray properly.

OK, I'll believe you. But please don't waste any time praying for non-believers.

 

[omega2xx]

Many cultures were writing then, and had plenty of "smart people" to travel and record such things. Yet, given the abysmal lack of such documentation, this clearly did not happen.

Do you really think records that old have not been destroyed and are still available? Some may still be found later s the diggings continue.

 

[omega2xx]

OK, I'll believe you.

So some of the verses in Genesis got it wrong then

]No. Did you have any particular vers ein mind?

I will accept evidence, your definition of evidence may be a lot lower than mine.

Evidence is what is used to prove/disprove something .If the evidence is proved, it becomes a fact. If if is disproved, it is thrown into the pile of theories.

OK, I'll believe you. But please don't waste any time praying for non-believers.

I don't unless someone ask me to. they are God's responsibility,not mine.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

So, with faith the size of a mustard seed, I can tell an entire mountain to get up and relocate, but getting the Romans to go do something useful with their time, that's just unbelievable?

Yes, but that isn't really an issue because it was not a Christian objective to drive the Romans out of Jerusalem, nor was it Christ’s objective when he was there. If the Israelites had heeded God’s Old Covenant warning and been obedient to him, Jerusalem would not have come under Roman control in the first place.

And when the Jews did revolt against Roman occupation in 70 AD, Jerusalem was destroyed, as God had foretold in the Book of Ezekiel. The temple was demolished just as thoroughly as Jesus had said it would be in Matthew 24:1 – “there will not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

That was all between the Jews and the Romans. Christians left Jerusalem before the siege began, and remained detached from Judaism and Jewish matters.

 

[Wu Wei]

Only one thing I have to say, and I do not wish to derail any conversation, but the title "How can you literally believe"

By definition you can't

Literal
1. in accordance with, involving, or being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical:
the literal meaning of a word.
2. following the words of the original very closely and exactly
3. true to fact; not exaggerated; actual or factual
4. being actually such, without exaggeration or inaccuracy
5. (of persons) tending to construe words in the strict sense or in an unimaginative way
6. of or relating to the letters of the alphabet.
7. of the nature of letters.

Belief
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction:
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof
3. confidence; faith; trust
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith:

OK, I'm done, sorry for the intrusion

 

[SoldierofChrist]

And for all those who didn't see the video I posted, here it is again. This is on violence in the Bible, by Bishop Robert Barron. Enjoy!

 

[columbus]

Yes, but that isn't really an issue because it was not a Christian objective to drive the Romans out of Jerusalem, nor was it Christ’s objective when he was there.

What reason do you have for believing this besides Church teachings?
Tom

 

[SoldierofChrist]

What reason do you have for believing this besides Church teachings?
Tom

If it were Church teachings that he got that from (I say if because I don't know) then how would that invalidate his statement? Circular reasoning is not always fallacious.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

What reason do you have for believing this besides Church teachings?
Tom

Old Testament, New Testament, and logic. Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's," which is in the gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke. But he is not quoted as saying anything about liberating Jerusalem from Roman occupation. He wouldn't have said that because he knew the reason for it and he knew what was going to happen there in 70 AD and he knew whose sins and disobedience brought it all on, and he knew that because he is God.

Taking on the Roman army was not among the things Jesus instructed his followers to do. It was not part of his mission on earth and not part of theirs. And Christians would hardly have been motivated to fight for the sake of Jewish liberation anyway. They were under constant persecution by the Jews.

 

[Fool]

If it were Church teachings that he got that from (I say if because I don't know) then how would that invalidate his statement? Circular reasoning is not always fallacious.

Old Testament, New Testament, and logic. Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's," which is in the gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke. But he is not quoted as saying anything about liberating Jerusalem from Roman occupation. He wouldn't have said that because he knew the reason for it and he knew what was going to happen there in 70 AD and he knew whose sins and disobedience brought it all on, and he knew that because he is God.

Taking on the Roman army was not among the things Jesus instructed his followers to do. It was not part of his mission on earth and not part of theirs. And Christians would hardly have been motivated to fight for the sake of Jewish liberation anyway. They were under constant persecution by the Jews.

God is omniscient. Jesus isn't

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

God is omnipresent. Jesus isn't

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

That one is between the Father and the Son. They have their own relationship, which is not ours to understand beyond what Jesus told us.

God is omniscient. Jesus isn't

God is omnipresent. Jesus isn't

God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That means that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The attributes of one are the attributes of the three. So Jesus is omniscient and omnipresent

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

He ascended into heaven, leaving them in the solid, physical form as the apostles had known him, but he also said, "I will be with you even until the end of time."

 

[Fool]

That one is between the Father and the Son. They have their own relationship, which is not ours to understand beyond what Jesus told us.


God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That means that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The attributes of one are the attributes of the three. So Jesus is omnipresent


He ascended into heaven, leaving them in the solid, physical form as the apostles had known him, but he also said, "I will be with you even until the end of time."

I am that [i am is the son]

Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

colossians 3:11
christ is all and in all


Acts 17:28
‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

OUR Father who are in heaven...............

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Matthew 23:9
9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

So Jesus is omniscient and omnipresent

So...he asked himself (the Father) why he had forsaken himself (the Son) as some sort of rhetorical device, despite being well aware of the answer before asking...

 

[Forever_Catholic]

So...he asked himself (the Father) why he had forsaken himself (the Son) as some sort of rhetorical device, despite being well aware of the answer before asking...

No, Jesus was quoting from Psalm 22, which is a Messianic prophesy written by King David.

The first verse is "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish? "

 

[psychoslice]

I myself just cannot believe in silly stories, I have some knowledge about the laws of the Cosmos, and I know very well that these laws cannot be broken, buy whoever..........but still you get those who believe in just about anything.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

SoldierofChrist;

If it were Church teachings that he got that from (I say if because I don't know) then how would that invalidate his statement? Circular reasoning is not always fallacious.

True - but it WILL be always fallacious when the teaching itself is already proved to be false, not authentic and twisted from the original message and intent..It will ALWAYS be fallacious as the agenda to do this is clearly stated to dominate us and force us to comply to church authority..... As said -the religon HAVE placed their followers into a trap, gave them one source of truth and forbid you all form even going ot look elsewhere - thus yes indeed the religion has its circular reasoning, always self referential - but the problem with that is its all fallacy, delusion and twisted truth at the core - and that means it will ALWAYS be a fallicious religion..

ForeverCatholic;

Old Testament, New Testament, and logic. Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's," which is in the gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke.

Here is the perfect example - twisting of ORIGINAL truth to suit church agenda....look - that above is NOT what He said - not the COMPLETE saying - that above is slanted and twisted and does not give His complete truth at all....THE ORIGINAL is from THOMAS - not your new testemant at all - indeed - around 80% of all these sayings from Christ can be found ORIGINALLY in Thomas - as said - there are 1000s of such original manuscripts and your bible is manufactured FROM these originals...Here is the actual truth of that quote above as He spoke it directly to Thomas -a very crucial difference becomes obvious :

They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."

He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

CRUCIAL difference - the last statement conveniantly left out form YOUR quote but here the ORIGINAL makes it plain indeed...YOU make it sound like Christ is sided with that god in the bible - BUT - when CHRIST SPEAKS ORIGINALLY - He makes it OBVIOUS - He has no affiliation, and wishes to distance Himself from THAT so called god entirely - makes it very plain - give the emporer what is his - give THAT god what is his also - then GIVE ME MIN|E He says !!!! Clearly - undeniably - He Himself portrays Himself as SEPERATE from BOTH mortal world AND the god of their religion !!! That IS because as said before this Hebrew god is NOT Our Father that Christ alone reveals - this quote just proves this fact yet again...

Fool;

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

lol -as explained also - this is because this transformation and new beginning is indeed a SELF TRANSFORMATION and NEW Self awareness - it is a PERSONAL event that happens inside the Mind Folks - and therefore indeed NO ONE can tell you when it will happen as it is YOUR MIND that must change Nobody else can do that for you - no priest, no clergy no religion - its about YOU how you see the Self, and your personal connection to Our Father the Source - therefore NOBODY else can ever tell you the "hour or day" as its all about YOU, the mind and Self perspective... As He said to those with ears to hear - KNOW THY SELF and all mystery will be revealed

Lewismotmiler;

So...he asked himself (the Father) why he had forsaken himself (the Son) as some sort of rhetorical device, despite being well aware of the answer before asking...

This is ALSO about the MIND Folks.....As I have also said elsewhere before - even Yeshua HAD TO DIE in order to free His Soul - HIS MIND - and so reclaim His full Divine status...Hanging there on the cross His MORTAL mind trapped within a failing body wracked with excruciating pain of the crucifixtion - we can surely forgive Him if He forgets His truth for a moment under such conditions...The process was not comlete yet - dont forget - He is NOT Christ until He ascends - for now hanging on that tree - He is Yeshua a mortal who is feeling all the pain and despair such a situation would bring to us all - He is BECOMING Christ FULLY, but unable to do that without this physical death - entirely necassary...

Look - He ADOPTED the mortal form to come among us directly - part of that process is the inherant divided broken mind that WE have naturally....Part of us HERE and TRAPPED within a mortal physical body - part existing OUTSIDE "space and time" as we experience it here - these two parts must be consciously reunited -and only physical death allows that to happen fully....The mortal mind here does not know its full truth, MUST deal with THIS world directly for that is its function...When this world overwhelms us so, we soon forget everything else - pain especially is very good at locking us into the body, making us identify with THAT - and so under such painful stressful conditions - even my mate forgot Himself briefly...Forgive Him as He forgives You...Amen...

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Yes, but that isn't really an issue because it was not a Christian objective to drive the Romans out of Jerusalem

Of course, when by the time you're writing up the NT, it's important to stress that "fact" to the Romans.

And when the Jews did revolt against Roman occupation in 70 AD, Jerusalem was destroyed, as God had foretold in the Book of Ezekiel. The temple was demolished just as thoroughly as Jesus had said it would be in Matthew 24:1 – “there will not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The NT was written after the events of 70 AD, so you don't have any texts to prove Jesus said those things.

So Jesus is omniscient and omnipresent

So, if I look back at all cultures during Jesus' timeframe all over the globe, I should find reference to Jesus, since he was everywhere, right? Sensing what is going on in the rest of the world isn't the same thing as BEING everywhere on the globe and and the universe...

 

[MonkeyFire]

The nature becomes the thought
The thought becomes the word

Attainment of it is impossible