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How can you literally believe...

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I looked, and all I could find were non-credible sources, information and background on the man, and links to articles that don't allow me access to even the abstract.
I read it back when it was still under the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research but it looks like they took it down. It's probably in one of his books but unless you can find a free copy at a library, you'd probably have to go through a paywall to find it now.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well we are at an unsolvable impasse if you consider the csicop group to be a fair source of information.

Again, to judge the truth for ourselves we need to do homework studying the evidence and argumentation from all sides of any controversial issue.

It's up to you if you want to review the material I presented and I agree support and rebuttal is of too large a scope for an RF reply post. Arguments based on quantity, quality and consistence of evidence can not be short logical arguments.
I consider whether a group to be fair inconsequential to what they say and if it has a suitable rebuttal. If I only read what was considered to be fair I wouldn't look at the vast majority of links you provide as they go back to specific pro-psychic groups looking to make a point. :D

But I agree we are probably at an impasse anyway, as we have been in previous discussions. Maybe we'll break through that impasse someday, but probably not today.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I consider whether a group to be fair inconsequential to what they say and if it has a suitable rebuttal. If I only read what was considered to be fair I wouldn't look at the vast majority of links you provide as they go back to specific pro-psychic groups looking to make a point. :D
Again, remember I suggest to read all sides and then judge for yourself (but that will not be a quick thing).
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I agree, which is why I read your link and why you'll hopefully read mine. :p
Oh believe me, I have already read your link many times and all anti-paranormal arguments I can find. I have been at this subject for many decades. It is not a side subject to me as it is to most people.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
How do you determine the credibility of sources? Did you see the quality of the names dropped in that website and determined that they are all non-credible?
The URL is a big indication, such as one that is xxxx.mega50.com - the .mega50 is a major indication it's phoney. "Evidencefortheafterlife.com" screams bias, as does "skepticforum.com." The University of Arizona's page is obviously credible, but it only contains a brief bit of biographical information of the man.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I read it back when it was still under the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research but it looks like they took it down. It's probably in one of his books but unless you can find a free copy at a library, you'd probably have to go through a paywall to find it now.
Not surprising if it was taken down considering very few universities still take para-psychology seriously and have departments for it.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but what if the Bible is actually eyewitness account (written before radio and TV were even conceived) instead of mythology? Does that change anything? (I bet you'll answer no anyways. :p)
Depends, can you assure me that the writers weren't burning the same bush that Moses seems to have?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

This is just ignorant opinion. If one can disprove the Resurrection, then one can destroy Christianity and will be world famous.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The URL is a big indication, such as one that is xxxx.mega50.com - the .mega50 is a major indication it's phoney. "Evidencefortheafterlife.com" screams bias, as does "skepticforum.com." The University of Arizona's page is obviously credible, but it only contains a brief bit of biographical information of the man.
Er.....what? The URL has no mega50 in it but that would still be irrelevant. The 'man' is a former member of the Australian Supreme Court if that matters. He relies primarily on other sources which can be researched by the truly interested.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
This is just ignorant opinion. If one can disprove the Resurrection, then one can destroy Christianity and will be world famous.
The burden of proof falls entirely on you for stating the claim someone who died returned to life.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Er.....what? The URL has no mega50 in it but that would still be irrelevant.
When I looked up the guy and this triple blind research, what I gave were examples of the results, including one that was "whateverpagename".mega50.com. And, yes, "odd" URLs are a legitimate red flag, not just for source credibility but online safety.
The 'man' is a former member of the Australian Supreme Court if that matters.
It doesn't. Indiana legislators once tried to legally define pi as 3.2, which will not work. Their positions as official state representatives does not add to their credibility or the merit behind such an absurd attempt.
He relies primarily on other sources which can be researched by the truly interested.
Just about every researcher does that. Such as, Young Earth Creationists draw from other sources, but their sources, upon investigation, are notoriously limited to other Young Earth Creationist proponents, and not from the science community as a whole. I suspect the person you mentioned (I can't recall his name, nor do I care to look back a few pages) draws very heavily from other heavily-debunked and discredited para-normal investigators.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

The most effective movement in human history; with a spirit and ethic which has survived better
than every other mode of being known. Yes it is the greatest thing in history. Clearly.
Nobody forgot. Everyone knows about it.

The strange thing is that you assume because you cannot perform these actions, that makes them impossible.
Primitive people hearing about aircraft and submarines without ever seeing them, would often also
reject them as impossible. Think of miracles simply as advanced technology and techniques completely
beyond the primitive thinking of this society. Put it in that context. Unless your ego will not let you.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
When I looked up the guy and this triple blind research, what I gave were examples of the results, including one that was "whateverpagename".mega50.com. And, yes, "odd" URLs are a legitimate red flag, not just for source credibility but online safety.

It doesn't. Indiana legislators once tried to legally define pi as 3.2, which will not work. Their positions as official state representatives does not add to their credibility or the merit behind such an absurd attempt.

Just about every researcher does that. Such as, Young Earth Creationists draw from other sources, but their sources, upon investigation, are notoriously limited to other Young Earth Creationist proponents, and not from the science community as a whole. I suspect the person you mentioned (I can't recall his name, nor do I care to look back a few pages) draws very heavily from other heavily-debunked and discredited para-normal investigators.
This shows the distrust I have for the so-called skeptical groups. Everyone that agrees with them is credible and anyone that does not agree is not credible. Suspicious labeling?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Indiana legislators once tried to legally define pi as 3.2, which will not work.
As a Hoosier with a bit of pride in our home state,
I should point out that this wasn't during the tenure of our current governor, Vice President elect Mike Pence.
He has his own issues.
Tom
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
As a Hoosier with a bit of pride in our home state,
I should point out that this wasn't during the tenure of our current governor, Vice President elect Mike Pence.
He has his own issues.
Tom
True, but regardless a position of political authority doesn't make one right - case in point being Taylor Record, the state Representative who believed someone who thought a circle can be squared. With Mike Pence, we have "smoking won't kill you," "homosexuals are a sign of societal collapse," and trying to disprove evolution before Congress.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
This shows the distrust I have for the so-called skeptical groups. Everyone that agrees with them is credible and anyone that does not agree is not credible. Suspicious labeling?
Yes, suspicious labeling. If you go back, I even stated the website "skepticforums.com screams bias," and I judged it to be inadequate to research the claims made by this person you mentioned.
And, yes, suspicious labeling. If you don't recognize such things, you really need to take some internet safety/security courses because suspicious looking URLs are a serious and major red flag when it comes to online safety/security. In the case of this .mega50.com, I could find anything on the domain, other than that apparently it may Chinese in origin, it may be down, but when searching for a particular domain fails to yield results, that is another indication of a possible fraudulent website. And when security is not a concern, it can help you to more quickly filter out credible sources that will be accepted by most from biased and fake news sources, though this tends involve looking more at who the article is coming from than watching for suspicious URLs.
 
How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

Wait, didn't you 'literally believe' these things about a week and a half ago?(and about a month before that, and about 2 months before that, etc)

When what you believe swings wildly from week to week, who are you to judge what others believe?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Mark 16:17-18King James Version (KJV)
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Matthew 7:7
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Matthew 17:20
Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

John 14:12
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

A book that says such things cannot help me. Such Scriptures can be tested and proven false and it just fills me with rage. People who are forcing the Bible on others should be doing those works or not preaching. The Bible really bothers me because it has so many verses that state the opposite of what other verses state and is filled with parables, allegory, poetry, and hyperbole, and people take it literal and use it to judge and beat people up.

God can help me. That book cannot. It is a book that tells me I can pick up poisoness serpents, drink poison and it won't harm me...that book tells me I can heal the sick, make the lame walk, make the blind see and deaf hear, walk on water, move mountains, prophecy, and receive everything I ask for in Jesus name. Until I see any evidence that that is true, I have no reason to trust that book.

Sorry, I'm going through a phase where I'm putting God on trial and finding him guilty of being unfaithful to his word, guilty of refusing to guide his people as he repeatedly promised, guilty of proving himself to untrustworthy and unreliable! I hope you're reading this Mr. God! :mad:
 
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