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How can your belief be falsified?

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
It is impossible to prove a medium is communicating with a dead person. Even if they receive verifiable information not previously known to the medium this still wouldn't constitute proof. The medium could just have made a lucky guess or used regular psychic abilities.

In the end, we have to use our own judgment all things considered.

FWIW, I agree with you, and that's why I spend so much effort documenting my experiences and collecting tangible evidence of what I see and experience. That being said, I don't go out of my way to persuade skeptics that what I can do is real or argue with skeptics that the evidence I collect during my paranormal investigations is genuine. As I've said before (see here), people can accept or reject what I say about my connection with the spirit world. It's entirely their decision, and it doesn't bother me if they don't believe me.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So firstly, there is no belief I won't discard if the evidence demands it. So what I am asking is for people who preach or hold beliefs, how can those beliefs be falsified? If of course they can't then how can you rationally justify disbelieving other unfalsifiable beliefs. Which I assume need only be a rhetorical question?

A book that claims to be perfect would have infinite ways of being disproven. You merely have to show one imperfection in God's words. Simply, one phrase in Quran, that should be said in a different way. One verse that can be switched with another verse for example, and that it would be better.

You can also have infinite ways of disproving it's "perfect morality" by showing logically, that one of it's morals is wrong.

And if you can write something like it, it would disprove it, and there is infinite books possibly from God and so there are infinite words a person can pick to make in on par with God's book.

Also, any of it's philosophical arguments whether for God's existence or oneness or why he would reveal books or send Messenger or appoint kings or it's whole philosophy of how to stick to God's rope and remain united, if any of it is shown flawed and that any of Quranic proofs are false, then it falls and is disproven.

If there is contradiction in it, it's disproven.

If any features of it can be enhanced in eloquence, it would be disproven. If any words of it can be calculated to be better off written differently, it would be disproven.

But let's see anyone do any of these....

Heck if what it says about dark casting of Iblis and hard hearts and soft hearts and God's clear signs, is wrong, then it would be disproven.

So it even proves there is dark magic against it, and if that can't be witnessed and proven, it would be disproven.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, we give them toys and money and say it was the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. Then we tell them that Grandpa went to heaven to be with God... and the treat? Now Grandpa is no longer in pain but is in a happy place.

Then, at some point, some people start to question those things they've been told. Parents have no problem telling them that Santa wasn't real. But what do they do about the Bible stories? Or that a God/man walked on water and floated off into the sky after he had risen from the dead? That man offers the greatest treat of all.... forgiveness of all the bad things you've done or will do and the reward of going to heaven.
Evidence is good if you have people who want evidence, but its useless if they don't. Remember the tiny little cold fusion thing? Remember the Y2K bug? Remember when Trump could go on stage and say whatever and evidence didn't matter? This kind of thing happens from time to time. Evidence is only as important as people make it.

Better the Santa you know then the Santa you don't. You're going to have either the Santa that gives gifts or one that kidnaps children, but you're going to have one. If you don't have one then something else will appear in Santa's place. All of this talk about falsifiable and evidence is great, but its lost on most people. People often think evidence is proof or that evidence has crime rules or that its magically obvious. People watching Discovery Channel who've had Earth Science nevertheless get confused about whether Earth is flat. "Could it be that the Earth is actually flat?" they wonder. They really do and can and have done.

Speaking of evidence I've been summoned twice to do jury duty. The first thing that happens is the judge, the prosecution and the defense get together to eliminate anyone that they think may not be able to handle the concept of evidence. They generally call about 10x as many people as they need -- out of necessity.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So firstly, there is no belief I won't discard if the evidence demands it. So what I am asking is for people who preach or hold beliefs, how can those beliefs be falsified? If of course they can't then how can you rationally justify disbelieving other unfalsifiable beliefs. Which I assume need only be a rhetorical question?
A complete evidence based theory of consciousness and self awareness that does not presume the presence of the mind and inner experience but deduces their existence and nature from the physics of the brain.
 

Yazata

Active Member
So firstly, there is no belief I won't discard if the evidence demands it.

I'm not sure whether evidence is even applicable to our most fundamenal beliefs.

So what I am asking is for people who preach or hold beliefs, how can those beliefs be falsified?

Suppose one believes that 'All beliefs must be falsifiable'. (Though I don't believe that Karl Popper ever said that. I think that he was trying to define a criterion of what is and isn't scientific. So in his scheme, if a belief isn't falsifiable, then it can't be considered a scientific belief.)

So how would one go about falsifying the belief that 'All beliefs must be falsifiable'?

If of course they can't then how can you rationally justify disbelieving other unfalsifiable beliefs. Which I assume need only be a rhetorical question?

In my own case, I'd just say 'I'm not convinced'. I'd need some reason to believe whatever-it-is that I find persuasive.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
FWIW, I agree with you, and that's why I spend so much effort documenting my experiences and collecting tangible evidence of what I see and experience. That being said, I don't go out of my way to persuade skeptics that what I can do is real or argue with skeptics that the evidence I collect during my paranormal investigations is genuine. As I've said before (see here), people can accept or reject what I say about my connection with the spirit world. It's entirely their decision, and it doesn't bother me if they don't believe me.
You have the correct mature attitude there. If some instead of being fair-minded want to charge dishonesty or gullibility then there is no way for you to stop them. Logic and reason cannot trump an emotionally held position.

Just move on and continue presenting the evidence many of us really do appreciate.
 

Yazata

Active Member
How can your belief be falsified?

How can "none"ianity be falsified, please? Right?

Regards

Isn't "nonianity" just a coined word for 'lack of belief'?

A way to falsify it might be for someone to elicit beliefs from the one who claims to have no beliefs.

And one might want to ask how the mere absence of belief (intellectual voidness) can possibly qualify as an "-ianity".
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
FWIW, I agree with you, and that's why I spend so much effort documenting my experiences and collecting tangible evidence of what I see and experience. That being said, I don't go out of my way to persuade skeptics that what I can do is real or argue with skeptics that the evidence I collect during my paranormal investigations is genuine. As I've said before (see here), people can accept or reject what I say about my connection with the spirit world. It's entirely their decision, and it doesn't bother me if they don't believe me.
Yes, experiences are real, or at least seem real, but different people with different beliefs seem to experience things that confirm their beliefs. My brother climbed up a big boulder, but when he tried to climb down, he couldn't see the foothold. He was a Christian, so he asked God and Jesus to help him. He said he had to let go of his handhold and hope his foot would land on the foothold. He let go and said that he felt the hand of God keeping him from falling. I had some Pentecostal Christian friends that received prophecies from God and say they were healed of things. To me, some of their healings sounded a little flaky. Oh, and some of their "prophecies" too. But they certainly believed them.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
But we need to have a way to verify whether they are true or not. Even among the religions, one religion does that to one of the other religions. "Oh, they are false" and then they give their reasons why they believe that is so. But even within the sects of the same religion, people say, "They are false" then give their reasons. What are they using to make that judgement? Their Scriptures and their interpretations of those Scriptures. Atheist just take it one step further. "How do you know your Scriptures are true? Which includes, "How do you know that your prophet or God/man is true? And then, "How do you know God is true?"

I can see why some religious people would rather hold on to their "beliefs" than not believe. The community of believers and praying and worshipping together. If they let it, and some people want it, the Scriptures can be made to sound true and believable. But how literal are they going to take it? That is a big problem for Christians. Jesus is God? They'll answer, "Sure." He rose from the dead and was virgin born? "Yes." He walked on water and cast out demons? "Yeah, I guess." How about the Flood? Someone might say, "I saw a video where it proved that the Earth was completely flooded. So yes, I believe that is true." Or someone else might doubt it a little but doesn't care enough to question it. Then what about Moses throwing down his cane and it turned into a snake? Or then the big one... Creation?

Those things can be researched. But... it doesn't matter. Bible-believing scientists find the "proof" for those things, and other scientists find proof why those things aren't true. So even with science, if people want to believe, they will find the "proof" they need to keep believing. For some people, their religious beliefs are too important to them to ever let go. Still, those same believers will have no problem telling someone else how their beliefs are wrong.

Oh, and about "spiritual experiences"... It sure seems like, no matter what a person believes, they experience something. Some might even get a vision. Since it can happen to people in religions that are very different, is it real or in their head?


Well it seems you have very definite ideas about what religious belief is, and what purpose it serves. It doesn’t really comport with my own. To begin with, the question I’d start by asking is not “is it true?” but rather, “does it work?” In other words, does a particular religious or spiritual practice help me be a better person? Does it help me be at peace with myself and with others? Does it bring me closer to a God of my understanding? If the answers to these questions is yes, then the belief, faith, and associated practice have value.

As for judging the validity of other’s beliefs, I’m not interest in doing that; I think if others are to be judged then first of all it won’t be by me, and secondly it will in any case be on their actions - by their fruits shall you know them.

Yes, spiritual experiences can happen to anyone; even to committed atheists (I have met such people). When that happens, then of course that person will interpret and, if driven to do so, describe that experience through the prism of their culture, learning and experience. It’s therefore no surprise to me that there are as many varieties of religious experience, as there are individuals who have had those very real experiences.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
You have the correct mature attitude there. If some instead of being fair-minded want to charge dishonesty or gullibility then there is no way for you to stop them. Logic and reason cannot trump an emotionally held position.

Just move on and continue presenting the evidence many of us really do appreciate.

To be completely honest, I'm aware that arguing and debating with skeptics about my experiences and the evidence I collected during my paranormal investigations, whether online or in person, is pointless and a waste of my time. My interactions with skeptics over the years have taught me that until they've witnessed something paranormal firsthand for themselves, they won't change their mind and concede that it's real. After almost fifteen years of investigating the paranormal and encountering my fair share of skeptics, I'm now a firm believer in "seeing is believing." I've repeatedly witnessed this happen time and time again with skeptics throughout my years as a paranormal investigator. I've dealt with a lot of skeptics over the years while I've been investigating haunted locations and collecting tangible evidence of my experiences. I'm not hindered and discouraged by their doubts and criticism, and I will continue to welcome them to participate in my investigations whenever it's possible. I've learned to recognize the process that they go through, from doubt and skepticism to actually believing in the paranormal. Lastly, I'm determined to move forward and continue to document evidence of what I see, hear, and experience. And I will continue to document my paranormal investigations in the paranormal activities forum.
 
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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
So firstly, there is no belief I won't discard if the evidence demands it. So what I am asking is for people who preach or hold beliefs, how can those beliefs be falsified? If of course they can't then how can you rationally justify disbelieving other unfalsifiable beliefs. Which I assume need only be a rhetorical question?
There are things I believe thanks to evidence. There are things I am open to but don’t believe 100%. There are things that I don’t believe at all.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
This thread is based on the spurious premise that falsifiability is a universal standard for determining the value of a theory or belief.

No it isn't, if you read the title and the OP you will see that isn't mentioned.

Religious convictions, or indeed spiritual experiences, are not scientific theories.

Well that's trivially true of course, but since I made no mention whatsoever of scientific theories, or even science, it's also something of a straw man.
 

BrightShadow

Active Member
there is no belief I won't discard if the evidence demands it.

So, you discard beliefs if the evidence demands it!

what I am asking is for people who preach or hold beliefs, how can those beliefs be falsified?

You already know the answer! Evidence!

If of course they can't then

Why not? Lack of evidence?

If of course they can't then how can you rationally justify disbelieving other unfalsifiable beliefs.

Same way you do!
Now - had you asked - why I hold my belief without a way to show you evidence to support it?
My answer would be with a question...
Why do you prefer a certain brand of Car over another?
You do your research - you figure out which one makes sense to you and which one you can trust. Then you buy it and you drive it. If you lose your trust for whatever reason - then you try another brand.

But you shouldn't be walking because you will never get there in time!
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
"Worldview" is a better term than "belief". If we use belief then some atheists say that a lack of belief is different to a belief and excuse themselves of the same demands that they place on others who hold beliefs. Yes I know, silly but true.
Your worldview can be falsified by showing that a God exists.

No, atheism is part of my world view, and my world view is atheistic, but atheism is not a world view. If you can show a deity exists I am left wondering why you haven't?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
My beliefs can be falsified by showing that the Bible is not true.

I have demonstrated errors in the bible on here, when a theist asked for them, they were waved away or rationalised. Also yours is not the only deity humans have imagined are real. I recognise that some god concepts or claims are falsifiable though, Like an omniscient omnipotent omnibenevolent deity, that created, or allowed a world with ubiquitous suffering, as one example.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I've been trying to think of a way to make a contribution to your thread since yesterday, and I don't think I can except perhaps to clarify some terms. Only statements about observable reality can be falsified, and then only if they're incorrect. Thus a correct statement about observable reality can be falsifiable in the philosophical sense that one can imagine a physical observation that would invalidate the idea IF IT IS INCORRECT. If it's correct, it's not falsifiable in the non-philosophic sense that it actually can be falsified.

Also, metaphysical speculations are never falsifiable, since they're "not even wrong." Nor anything going on in the mind that isn't a statement about empirical reality such as finding something beautiful or experiencing an urge. The term only applies to ideas about the world out there known by experience.

It seems to me that the abiogenesis hypothesis is unfalsifiable. I can't imagine a discovery that would demonstrate that life cannot emerge spontaneously under the right circumstances. I suspect the related belief that irreducible complexity does not exist in biological systems is unfalsifiable. And yet I believe that both of those ideas are correct. Does that mean I hold unfalsifiable beliefs?



It sounds like it. I think I got four things out of my formal education. First, a fund of knowledge about a variety of topics. Second, preparation for a technical profession. Third, how to think critically. And fourth, how to how to study effectively and to continue learning independently after graduation.



That disparity is evidence that what is being experienced when one claims to experience God is nothing but a vague feeling translated by two cognitive biases into a god belief - first, projection, or what's in here mistakenly be perceived as something out there, and agenticity, or the tendency to ascribe consciousness and intent to natural phenomena.

The question the alert and inquisitive mind asks is whether those people are all seeing something he can't see, or they're not. Is there a test to decide this? Let me share the parable of the color-blind boy.

He's been told all his life that that what he sees as a kind of gray color is actually either of two colors, red or green, and he believes it, until one day he remembers all of the other collective pranks pulled on him like the Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy stories. And then there was that day snipe hunting. So, he wants to test whether people are seeing something he can't see or not. To do this, he buys a few dozen pairs of red socks and green socks, numbers them, and has somebody tell him whether #1 is red or green, #2 next, and so on, until he has a list of sock numbers and alleged colors.

Then, he has several people who claim to see red and green identify the sock colors separately and without prior collaboration. If their answers are the same, he knows they see something not visible to him, and if the answers are all over the place, he knows he's being pranked. Same with this. Tell me what you think you see, Mr. Theist, and I'll tell you whether you are really seeing it or not.



Insinuations of science? Caviling of logic? This is a call to abandon reason and deny the implications of evidence of the senses if either conflicts with a faith-based belief. To the faithful, this is a virtue, a sign of steadfastness and commitment, and he wears this aspect of himself as a badge of honor. The the critical thinker, it's evidence that he's guessing, and since there are orders of magnitude more ways to guess wrong than right, he's probably guessed incorrectly. And he wants the skeptic to relax his standards and join him, since he knows that there is no evidence or sound argument that end, "therefore, God." If this idea is going to take root in a skeptics head, he needs to lower his defenses that have always helped him avoid false beliefs.

And that kind of thinking leads one to humanism, where reason is the virtue and unjustified belief the vice.



This is another statement that doesn't read as positively to the critical thinker as it does to this faith-based thinker. He sees unwavering certitude as a virtue and doubt as the vice. Humanism sees them oppositely. Certitude is a red flag characteristic of unnuanced thought.
If you ever find God then my post would make sense. Demands for proof is just spiritual laziness.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Isn't "noneianity" just a coined word for 'lack of belief'?

A way to falsify it might be for someone to elicit beliefs from the one who claims to have no beliefs.

And one might want to ask how the mere absence of belief (intellectual voidness) can possibly qualify as an "-ianity".
"Religion: None" is in counter-reaction to unreasonable and mythical Hellenist-Pauline-Christianity of "dying-rising-deity" therefore I coined the word "noneianity" or "Noneism" for it, please.

Regards
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
It's impossible to hold only falsifiable beliefs. At least some of your beliefs are going to come down to personal values rather than any kind of testable hypothesis. For example, do you believe that torture is immoral? Do you believe that science is useful? Do you believe that skepticism is sensible?

Ok, so dealing with morality first, the basis for my morality is subjective, but oddly the belief that torture is immoral would then not be be if one accepted the subjective idea that causing unnecessary suffering was wrong. However I see your point, one must first accept the subjective premise that causing suffering is wrong, I think we could at the very least present some strong arguments as to why we might consider it immoral.

I think we could demonstrate objective evidence that science is useful, I think the claim is falsifiable as well., but for example medicine and useful technologies are derived from scientific endeavours, that seems like objective evidence it is useful? Paradoxically if one could demonstrate that nothing of any practical purpose were derived from science, this would surely falsify the belief?

Scepticism being useful is perhaps more subjective, but one could argue that it helps validate beliefs more reliable. Though objectively demonstrating this might be complex.

None of those beliefs are falsifiable. They all come down to personal values and/or cultural background. The question then becomes, "Are all unfalsifiable beliefs equally unjustifiable?" I would argue that they aren't. I'm much more inclined to accept some unfalsifiable beliefs over others.

Well the extraordinary nature of some beliefs, or whether they are innocuous or pernicious, might be valid reasons to be more dubious about them.

To some extent, my dismissal of particular unfalsifiable beliefs isn't really a question of rationality so much as gut feeling. For example, I believe that torture is immoral but I may use some degree of reasoning ability if you tell me that torture is morally acceptable. I might not be able to logically prove you wrong but I can at least weigh up the pros and cons of your argument before I dismiss it.

In the absence of sufficient or even any objective evidence, the ability to demonstrate a rational argument for a belief, would at least demonstrate that the belief is not an irrational one. This does speak to it's validity.

On the other hand, If you told me you have an invisible, intangible unicorn in your house, I would just dismiss it automatically. I strongly suspect you would do the same if somebody told you about that unicorn.

I suspect you are correct. Not least because it appears to be indistinguishable from a non existent unicorn.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Easy. Show that there is a god of some sort.
Not all religions believe in god/s, there are many man made religions. "Religion- None "is yet another denomination of non-believers, the only common factor in them is their "confusion", one gets to know, please. Right?

Regards
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
IMOP God can be known through the inexplicable subjective experience with God by those who truly desire to know him. One has to find God on their own and in spirit.

A common assertion, but as has been pointed out before, this method seems to validate wildly different religions and deities, so to a neutral observer it appears an unreliable methodology.
 
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