How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

[oldbadger]

In any case, the earliest account of the Last Supper is in 1 Corinthians, where the 'real' Jesus appears with the 12.

I've already covered this in post 507.
And Paul, of course, was nowhere nearby.....

Page 50 Post 492
I found one direct reference to 'what Jesus said' in 1 Corinthians where Jesus spoke the communion at the last supper. I found Jesus's ruling about neighbourly love in Galatians and Romans but not attributed to Jesus, rather written as if Paul's initiative, and a few other rules were included alongside the Romans ref.

...... but Paul did not mention the living Jesus's words or about his life actions elsewhere. Meaning (see? meaningful) that Paul has no witness value to the Historical Jesus at all.

 

[JM2C]

This is utterly shocking, because years after these letters were written, G-Mark includes many many sayings and words of Jesus, and the reports the other gospels positively gush with Jesus's sayings............ and from Paul, nothing.

The four gospels were about the earthly ministry of Jesus the man/flesh [John 1:14, Romans 1:3] and Paul’s letters were about

Nearly every mention of Jesus's name that I saw referred to the God, the risen Lord

Read Romans 1:4

 

[oldbadger]

Ro 1:3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Ro 1:4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord

As you can see, Paul had no idea or interest in the living Jesus's life..... or his teachings..... or healings..... or demonstrations........ nothing.
No Historical Jesus value ........

Would you like to look for a description of a healing by Jesus, as written by Paul? Or anything done by Jesus in life, save for the mention of the communion in 1 Cor??

 

[fantome profane]

You must have missed his eyewitness account i posted earlier mate, here it is again-
“As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me.
And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’
And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’
Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me" (Acts 22:6-9)

You think Paul really said that?

 

[oldbadger]

The four gospels were about the earthly ministry of Jesus the man/flesh [John 1:14, Romans 1:3] and Paul’s letters were about Read Romans 1:4

Which is why Paul's writings are of no value in a debate about whether Historical Jesus is certain.

Paul never wrote about the living Jesus...... so his words cannot help in this thread:-
How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

 

[oldbadger]

Acts 22:6-9 gives Pauls eyewitness account-
“As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me.
And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’
And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’
Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me"

Incidentally his Jewish name 'Saul' translates to 'Paul' in latin, so he chose to be called 'Paul' from then on to appeal to a wider audience on his travels.

You have mentioned in other debates that Jesus was/is an alien.
Could the blinding light have been Jesus in a space machine of some kind?

 

[outhouse]

Which is why Paul's writings are of no value in a debate about whether Historical Jesus is certain.

]

appealing to severe ignorance

 

[outhouse]

You'll be trying to tell us next that Paul never even existed..

Desperation on your part, as I have never implied that.

Again without any education, you have no business in a history thread making unsubstantiated argument's appealing to severe ignorance.

 

[oldbadger]

appealing to severe ignorance

OK..... I'll appeal to you.
Wot av yer got?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..Again without any education, you have no business in a history thread making unsubstantiated argument's appealing to severe ignorance.

Don't keep putting yourself down mate, you seem to think that just because people have got college degrees, they're better than you and the rest of us!
Remember, a fool with a degree is still just a fool..

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..Could the blinding light have been Jesus in a space machine of some kind?

Good thinking mate, keep it up and you'll make Archbish of Canterbury..
Other people besides bounty hunter Saul had to be straightened out too-

"And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and relented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” Then David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, having in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem" (1 Chron 21:16/16)

 

[oldbadger]

OK..... I'll appeal to you.
Wot av yer got?

...... Ahhhhh....... Not a lot. :biglaugh:

 

[oldbadger]

Good thinking mate, keep it up and you'll make Archbish of Canterbury..
Other people besides bounty hunter Saul had to be straightened out too-

"And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and relented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” Then David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, having in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem" (1 Chron 21:16/16)

I thought that you had mentioned aliens.
opcorn:
:coffee2:

EDIT: Wot's the ol' ArchBishop's salary? Better than carpet-cleaning?

 

[outhouse]

OK..... I'll appeal to you.
Wot av yer got?

IQ is not required to debate.

 

[JM2C]

As you can see, Paul had no idea or interest in the living Jesus's life..... or his teachings..... or healings..... or demonstrations........ nothing.

No Historical Jesus value ........

Would you like to look for a description of a healing by Jesus, as written by Paul? Or anything done by Jesus in life, save for the mention of the communion in 1 Cor??

Ro 1:3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,

The Son of David according to the flesh recorded in the four gospels on which Paul did NOT witness at all and according to you

G-Mark includes many many sayings and words of Jesus, and the reports the other gospels positively gush with Jesus's sayings

Paul did not talk about the earthly ministry of Jesus the man/flesh because he did not witness it but Paul did know that there was a Jesus/man as he explained it in Romans 1:3 “the son of David according to flesh” and there is your Historical Jesus came from your own statements through Paul’s letters.

Why would Paul talk about the earthly ministry of Jesus/man if what he witnessed was the risen Lord in Acts posted by Shuttlecraft #512, and this was according to you also?

Nearly every mention of Jesus's name that I saw referred to the God, the risen Lord

Ro 1:4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Contemporary sources, eyewitness sources.Paul doesn't count because he never actually met Jesus according to his own testimony.

Paul's testimony counts because he met with people that WERE eyewitnesses. We are talking about the ORIGINAL disciples here. Mafia boss John Gotti has been dead for over 10 years, but his former underboss Sammy Gravano is still alive today..in fact, he "testified" against his former boss and the prosecution used him as an "eyewitness" on the stand. So if you interviewed Sammy for an article you are writing about Gotti, that would make your article contemporary, because your source is/was contemporary.

Paul met with the disciples, including Peter and James, brother of Jesus. That is...contemporary. So all of the "it happened hundred of years later" crap just doesn't fly here.

In fact, I'd like to see proof that any of the main characters of the New Testament existed - Jesus, Mary (all the Mary-s, really), Joseph, the 12 Apostles, Paul, etc. To my knowledge, we have no evidence that any of them existed outside of the Bible and people far removed from the alleged facts by decades or centuries repeating hearsay and fables. What a lovely mess of a can of worms there.

So the criterion is we need evidence of the characters outside of the Bible in order to have truth value? What kind of evidence are you looking for? Mere mentions, or what?

All you are doing is moving the goal posts. And again, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it is funny that you mention "people far removed from the alleged facts by decades or centuries repeating hearsay and fables".

Sooo, what do you call historians today that write books or articles and are looked at as authorities on subjects which predate them by hundreds and thousands of years??

Ohhhh, but that doesn't count, right?? When you were in school and you had a history teacher that spoke of events that happened hundreds/thousands of years before his/her time...did you raise your hand and say,

"Excuse me, Mr/Miss/Mrs X, I appreciate the fact that you are attempting to teach us history, but you are "far removed from the alleged facts by decades, and in some cases centuries, and you are only relying on what you were told", so I have no choice but to view your teaching as having little to no truth value because of these reasons."

Would you dare say such a thing? Yes? No? Did you? I doubt you did, which I find really messed up, considering that this is the EXACT same line of reasoning you've just used when it comes to the truth value of Christian claims.

Double standard?

Until I see some actual evidence, I will continue to doubt the historicity of those characters and continue to consider alternative explanations for the emergence of Christianity.

Ohh, so what is the alternative explanations for the emergence of Christianity?

A historical Jesus and his entourage really aren't required for a religion to emerge around them. We're not sure if Orpheus existed but a mystery religion sprang up around him, anyway, for example. Early Christianity actually really makes me think of Orphism and the other mystery cults.

Okkkk.

 

[oldbadger]

IQ is not required to debate.

Well you'll be ok then.
Now.... What have you git from Paul's letters to confirm a historical Jesus?

 

[outhouse]

Well you'll be ok then.
Now.... What have you git from Paul's letters to confirm a historical Jesus?

Nothing you can understand.

You have gone downhill to the point of not being able to participate in anything that furthers a thread.

 

[oldbadger]

Nothing you can understand.

You have gone downhill to the point of not being able to participate in anything that furthers a thread.

I didn't think that you had anything to offer, but insults.
A weak debate from you, so far. Why am I surprised about that?

 

[oldbadger]

Paul's testimony counts because he met with people that WERE eyewitnesses. ...........

...... Yes..... we know. But that cannot help this thread's question, which is:-

How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

Cephas or James would have needed to write their own testimony for Primary evidence to exist........ both of them, really, because one testimony might not push it to certainty.