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How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
A demi-god, a deity, or any number of entities we now find strewn across many an "Encyclopedia of Greco-Roman mythology" and the like. That was the norm. The only Greco-Roman gods for whom we have writings by authors who place these figures into a geographic, social, temporal, and cultural context are figures such as Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar, & Jesus, and a few others.

Ermm.....Alexander, Ceaser etc were men. I love your desperately disengenuous idea about how Ceaser was a 'mythological first century deity', but it does reduce your rebuttal to laughable gibberish. LOVE your idea that Alexander was a Greco-Roman god, as opposed to a human - it is scintillatingly silly.
Of course it is. The fact that even the ancient Greeks doubted whether Homer ever existed is pretty strong evidence, as it tells us that those who did not have the conceptions of history, biography, culture, myth, religion, etc., such that they had any historical-critical methods upon which to draw still doubted one of "the poets" is evidence of a similar type. That is, even after the dual person had all but died out it, was reserved for "the [two] poets", (meaning Homer & Hesiod) and the works attributed to them were received myth par excellence. Had nobody doubted, this would tell us little by itself. Had we found authors spread out in space and time within the Hellenistic, Romanist, and even late classical eras who wrote polemics against the classical Greek reliance one (Homer) whom they criticized the Greeks for believing was an historical figure, that two would be evidence.

As it is, we have the people who most relied on Homeric epics challenging this Homer themselves, and no real interest in attacking the Greeks for their beliefs in general even after they were conquered.

As usual, so many words - so little point. Who cares if Homer was historical or not? I don't.How is the historicity of Homer relevant ? A: It isn't. Legion just loves to write long, pointless off topic lectures.
For Jesus, were it possible for those like Celsus (or even Julian) to refer to traditions that indicated no historical Jesus existed rather than e.g., criticize him for being illegitimate, this wouldn't give us that much (certainly not as much as the utter lack of such critiques amongst the vast piles of anti-Christian polemicist writings that survive). That those such as Celsus affirm Jesus' historicity is more significant. That there is no plausible explanation for only our Christian sources without positing that Jesus was an historical figure, let alone all our sources, would be enough; that the we actually have evidence from not only from a Jewish author Like Josephus but the reports/letters from Pliny, Seutonius, Tacitus and probably more gentile sources (were we to use the standards mythicists apply to non-Christian sources, we'd say "certaintly") is simply icing on the cake: mythicist rely on accepting mainstream historical methods accept when it comes to the historical Jesus, in which case they don't just abandon said methods they dismiss the entirety of the historiographical approach. They don't seek to understand our sources but to explain them away while offering nothing remotely plausible in return.



Wrong. Celsus wrote these off as nothing special. Anti-Christian polemicists (at least until Constantine started making Christianity a way into imperial good graces rather than e.g., execution) relied on logical critiques against both Christians and their founder which ranged from alternate traditions for his birth to the impiety of his acts.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

Just to address your objection directly:

I said that the fact that there are few records doubting the historicity of Jesus, " is not evidence for historicity."

You reply:

"Of course it is. The fact that even the ancient Greeks doubted whether Homer ever existed is pretty strong evidence, as it tells us that those who did not have the conceptions of history, biography, culture, myth, religion, etc., such that they had any historical-critical methods upon which to draw still doubted one of "the poets" is evidence of a similar type.*"

No Legion, the fact that the ancient Greeks doubted whether Homer existed is not in any way shape or form evidence for his historicity. As usual your rebuttal makes no sense whatsoever.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Nice little rant sparky. There is no historical Jesus to shoot down mate. What 'Jesus evidence'? You have Paul - who spoke only to the ghost Jesus, and a few oblique and contested references in Tacitus and Josephus. You ask how I explain how all of the evidence got there - LOL what evidence?

Denialism coupled with an argument from ignorance is par for the course for both religious and atheist fundamentalists. There certainly is a historical Jesus to refute, and denying that there are literally THOUSANDS of extant documents that comprise this evidence is on par with fundie Christians who refuse to face the fossil record. In both cases, beings intentionally intellectually stunt themselves to no other end than believing whatever they want without regard to evidence to the contrary. The intellectual dishonesty on display is staggering.

Also, it bears repeating that Bunyip is once again hinting at fiction he spewed about Paul not acknowledging that Jesus was a human being, conveniently forgetting that Paul reported having met Jesus' brother.
 
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Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Ermm.....Alexander, Ceaser etc were men. I love your desperately disengenuous idea about how Ceaser was a 'mythological first century deity', but it does reduce your rebuttal to laughable gibberish. LOVE your idea that Alexander was a Greco-Roman god, as opposed to a human - it is scintillatingly silly.

Abuse of appeal to authority. Also, Bunyip has purposefully misframed Legion's argument. Well, at least I hope it was purposeful, because if Bunyip read Legion's argument and honestly believed he had read what he just spewed out, his dishonesty goes far beyond this forum right into the core of his consciousness where he must sell all of his lies to himself first before exposing us to them.

As usual, so many words - so little point. Who cares if Homer was historical or not? I don't.How is the historicity of Homer relevant ? A: It isn't. Legion just loves to write long, pointless off topic lectures.

Ad hominem fallacy. Bunyip is being purposefully dense. Well, at least I hope it was purposeful for the same reasons as above.
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
I can't prove that Legion "likes to" but, in point of fact he does write what might be charitably described as, "long, pointless off topic lectures."
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I can't prove that Legion "likes to" but, in point of fact he does write what might be charitably described as, "long, pointless off topic lectures."

In order to determine what is "pointless" or not, one must have some framework within which any statement, lecture, rant, etc., can be evaluated. In this case, your's is a nameless friend you rely on for the entirety of your approach to historical methods and are utterly incapable to present the remotest hint that you are even aware of elementary issues that relate to historical studies. The extent of your ability to determine, in this case, how relevant or not my posts are rests upon you anonymous "friend" whose supposed conclusions conflict with named historians in published, peer-reviewed literature.

Bunyip, who has morphed from an historian to one with an undergrad major in history to an expert in espionage (and whose capacity to evaluate sources was aptly demonstrated when he quote-mined a translator's commentary claiming it was Tacitus he was quoting and who has claimed to be an expert in more than one field despite admitting his degrees don't make him any kind of specialist whatsoever) is at least direct when he lies.

You hide behind references to specialists you can't quote, won't cite, and can't support with evidence of even a cursory familiarity with historical research in general and this topic in particular.

Bunyip has contradicted himself more times than I care to remember (but have demonstrated elsewhere) while you standby from the sidelines making suggestive comments like the above despite your complete inability and demonstrable refusal to support any case you have by reference to anything that indicates you remotely understand how historical methods (particularly as the apply to ancient history), still less any knowledge of this topic.

You originally claimed to be in some sense a scientist or scholar who participates or has participates in academia. Here, you can't even so much as indicate what the fields are that are relevant, still less journals/monograph series/etc., that are and still less that you have adhered to the kind of standards expected of early undergraduate studies.

This entire thread is a ""long, pointless attempt by someone who is as equally bereft of any familiarity with any relevant studies, methods, or any of that which makes-up what must be addressed to take this question seriously.

My "pointless" posts in this case have consisted of attempts on my part to get those like you to appreciate the nature of historical questions both specific to this question and historical research in general (I've long since given up on Bunyip, as his ignorance is deliberate and his biases demonstrated by various documented lies).

I'm fine with being written off as stupid, ignorant, insance, etc., when those whose motivations for such interpretions are intelligible. Fundamentalist-like dogma espoused here is worse than "pointless"- it is one of many mouthpieces by which trusting persons are swayed by arguments that they can't evaluate.

Your entire participation in all discussions on this topic amounts to your assertions about history, historiography, and our evidence which you do not base on logic, historical methods, or more than the kind of familiarity with the topic one could obtain by a "cliff's notes" to a Wikipedia entry. And when I try to give you more than this., your utter inability to situate historical arguments of this type within scholarship may seem "pointless", but your failure to address my questions (same with Bunyip) are evidence of how little knowledge you possess to determine what is or isn't meaningful.

Your response here is typical of all your and Bunyips's responses to my posts, whether I tried to adhere to Bunyip's nonsensical equating of "appeal to authority" with references to scholarship or no: write off as pointless arguments you don't specific or refer to and haven't addressed nor for which you possess the requisite knowledge to address.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Denialism coupled with an argument from ignorance is par for the course for both religious and atheist fundamentalists. There certainly is a historical Jesus to refute, and denying that there are literally THOUSANDS of extant documents that comprise this evidence is on par with fundie Christians who refuse to face the fossil record. In both cases, beings intentionally intellectually stunt themselves to no other end than believing whatever they want without regard to evidence to the contrary. The intellectual dishonesty on display is staggering.

Also, it bears repeating that Bunyip is once again hinting at fiction he spewed about Paul not acknowledging that Jesus was a human being, conveniently forgetting that Paul reported having met Jesus' brother.

Thousands of extant documents? LOL You have a wonderful imagination. Paul met a man who may have been Jesus brother, and Paul thought Jesus once lived as a human - why would I deny those things? So what?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Abuse of appeal to authority. Also, Bunyip has purposefully misframed Legion's argument. Well, at least I hope it was purposeful, because if Bunyip read Legion's argument and honestly believed he had read what he just spewed out, his dishonesty goes far beyond this forum right into the core of his consciousness where he must sell all of his lies to himself first before exposing us to them.

Legion is rather hilariously reffering to Alexander as a deity - how am I 'misframing' his argument? His argument really is that silly.
Ad hominem fallacy. Bunyip is being purposefully dense. Well, at least I hope it was purposeful for the same reasons as above.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Legion is rather hilariously reffering to Alexander

The way that Jesus was. Herein exists your problem: Alexander (even for pretend historians like you) are surely capable of some semblance of logic. Alexander was clearly represented in our sources as a god. Ergo (I'm assuming a basic familiarity with logic here that you have henceforth indicated you lack, so if you require interpretation just ask), your assessment about the hilarity of my reference to historical sources is just more evidence that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Our primary sources indicate that Alexander was believed to be a deity. Modern historians find this ridiculous. You, however, are so incapable of eve accurately representing my arguments you must contradict historical research and basic logic in order to combine the ways in which ancient sources deify Alexander & Jesus and the ways in which I do so as well but only for the former, not the latter.

Of course, maybe your "extensive" studies which made you an expert in espionage (or whatever your latest lies about your expertise consists of) isn't just a matter of ignorance. Perhaps you really are as fundamentalist as your posts indicate and as disingenuous.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Thousands of extant documents? LOL You have a wonderful imagination.

Yes. Thousands.

The first would be what we call "papyri" which refer to manuscripts written in uncials (capital letters, or majuscules) on a material made by crushing and drying papyrus plants together, known not surprisingly as papyrus. Papyrus was used in the earliest times and so papyri mss (manuscripts) tend to be the oldest ones we have. papyrus becomes fragile when repeatedly wetted, however, so the only papyrus mss that survived did so in hot dry climates, such as the sands of egypt. A large number of papyri have been published in the last century from the oxyrhinchus excavation site, and now the number is up to 116. Almost all of these are partial or lacunary, however.

The next group is what we call "uncials." These are mss that are, like papyri, written in uncial letters, but rather than being written on papyri they are written usually on vellum, or animal skin. Really, "uncials" encompasses any ms written in uncials that is not written on papyri. Since the papyri are the earlier ones, the remaining uncials tend to be younger. The oldest come from the third or fourth centuries. However, the surviving uncials tend to be much more complete, often encompassing complete copies of the NT, or in atleast one case, the whole bible in Greek. Last I checked there were 310 extant uncials, and I don't think we've discovered any more.

The next group is what we call minuscules. These are mss primarily written on vellum, paper, or whatever else, but are written in lower case letters, called minuscules. This style of writing developed much later into the middle ages, and thus minuscules tend to be much younger mss. Further, because they've had less time to fall apart, there are more minuscules extant than any other type, some 2877 of them. While there are a tonne of these minuscules, they tend to be considered less important in text critical decisions because they are younger and tend to just repeat and re-enforce eachother rather than offering independent evidence of one reading or another.

Finally, the last group is what we call lectionaries, and these are special manuscripts of the NT that were organised and printed with special markings or special divisions in special orders so as to facilitate liturgical reading in chuch. Lectionaries are therefore not very valuable in text critical decisions since they are mss that were specifically modified for a task. There are about 2432 of these extant today.

As fundie Christians must explain away each individual fossil thoughtlessly so as not to disturb their fragile worldview, so also must Bunyip explain away each individual mention of Jesus, whether they be in the NT papyri, in the Nag Hammadi library, or in sources hostile to Jesus and/or Christians.

Paul met a man who may have been Jesus brother, and Paul thought Jesus once lived as a human - why would I deny those things? So what?

I honestly do not know why Bunyip would deny that Paul thought Jesus once lived as a human, but he spent a sizable amount of time arguing that Paul's reported meeting with Jesus' brother James was relevant only for affirming James' existence and irrelevant to discussions about the historical Jesus, inexplicably reasoning that one can have a human brother and not be human himself. :D
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Yes. Thousands.



As fundie Christians must explain away each individual fossil thoughtlessly so as not to disturb their fragile worldview, so also must Bunyip explain away each individual mention of Jesus, whether they be in the NT papyri, in the Nag Hammadi library, or in sources hostile to Jesus and/or Christians.

LOL. See if you can identify just 10 of those 'thousands' sparky - love how you are counting mutiple copies as sources, precious. Sad that none of your 'thousands', not a single one is from a person who met Jesus - because of course we have no primary evidence of Jesus.
I honestly do not know why Bunyip would deny that Paul thought Jesus once lived as a human, but he spent a sizable amount of time arguing that Paul's reported meeting with Jesus' brother James was relevant only for affirming James' existence and irrelevant to discussions about the historical Jesus, inexplicably reasoning that one can have a human brother and not be human himself. :D

Well yes of course - because Paul only met what he imagined to be a spirit, not Jesus. Paul does not evidence the historicity of Jesus - because he did not meet him. Seriously mate - I LOVE how you don't understsnd why Paul's meeting the ghost Jesus doesn't count as testimony to the historical Jesus. The ghost Jesus is not the historical Jesus my little friend.;)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Please reference ten such.

p1, p2, p3, p4...p76 (this isn't strictly arithmetic as e.g., p7 doesn't exist); Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Epharaemi Resciptus, Vaticanus, Basel, Vercellensis, Curiensis, Aurseus, et cetera.

There are thousands upon thousands of such manuscripts. Granted, they are at best copies of some originals, but when one is truly invested in evaluating and understanding evidence one doesn't dismiss the fact that we have a handful of medieval copies known to be corrupt for virtually all authors from antiquity, compared to many thousands in this case.

Presumably, you didn't intend textual critical evidence to count here, as you aren't even aware of what this is. However, not only is you ignorance here telling, but so too is your general evaluation of evidence. For 10 authors that refute your claim simply look to Papias, the 4 canonical gospels, The author of Thomas, Paul, Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, Mara bar Serapion, Thallos, Pliny, Lucian, Celsus, etc. These represent more than 10 authors, and thus meet your requirement. However, the question is how we might evaluate these authors and their texts?

We could use Bunyip's method, which is to refer to a set number of historians that he refuses to name and rely on claims to self-authority (which vary over time) and a refusal to do more than to define historical methods idiomatically, or we could look to historical scholarship that Bunyip writes off as "arguments to authority" so that he can appeal to the various "authorities" he has claimed to be.

Alternatively, we could stop attempting to evaluating Jesus' historicity in terms of mistaken understandings of historical research, your appeal to an anonymous friend and Bunyip's various (and differing) claims to expertise, and simply look at historical research, methods, and findings.

That, however, would require the actual application of historical methods and real research. You have repeatedly shown your reluctance to do either.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

We could use Bunyip's method, which is to refer to a set number of historians that he refuses to name and rely on claims to self-authority (which vary over time) and a refusal to do more than to define historical methods idiomatically, or we could look to historical scholarship that Bunyip writes off as "arguments to authority" so that he can appeal to the various "authorities" he has claimed to be.

Only in your imagination you poor old thing. How many times is that now? 15 that you have repeated the same allegation? 16?
Alternatively, we could stop attempting to evaluating Jesus' historicity in terms of mistaken understandings of historical research, your appeal to an anonymous friend and Bunyip's various (and differing) claims to expertise, and simply look at historical research, methods, and findings.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm a qualified historian

I majored in ancient history.

I did a double major one in history and politics (specifically the history of espionage) the other in counter terrorism.

espionage is my field of knowledge.

A qualified historian who lacks the credentials to be one and whose field is espionage and who majored in history but also didn't major in history but double majored in "history and politics" and in counter-terrorism.

Yeah. You're a "qualified" something. Just not a qualified historian, academic, or scholar.

Still, I can't but laugh at the ways you tried to climb out of the pit you dug by claiming BOTH of he following:
Paul never met Jesus, and neither he nor Josephus are contemporary.
I never claimed that Paul was not contemporary with Jesus, as you Legion and Prophet seem to imagine.

You can launch into yet another defense as to how this blatant contradiction is really you saying that when you clearly said Paul wasn't Jesus' contemporary, what you meant was some other nonsense, but the fact remains you blatantly contradicted yourself factually. I say factually because your various claims of expertise are also contradictory, but here you are merely obviously misrepresenting yourself, not the evidence or the ways in which historians evaluate it.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Legion, you can beat up on bunyip all you want, maybe he desires it, I don't know, but that doesn't change the realities of the paucity of information concerning an historical Jesus.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Legion, you can beat up on bunyip all you want, maybe he desires it, I don't know, but that doesn't change the realities of the paucity of information concerning an historical Jesus.

No, it does not change it.

It stands on its own merit.

The man is historical, and those in dissent, can stomp their feet all they want and kick and cry, but at the end of the day, the man has historicity.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
LOL. See if you can identify just 10 of those 'thousands' sparky - love how you are counting mutiple copies as sources, precious. Sad that none of your 'thousands', not a single one is from a person who met Jesus - because of course we have no primary evidence of Jesus.

Just as fundamentalist Christian advocates for intelligent design must explain away many, many more than one fossil copy of most species to continue to hold their fragile worldviews, so also must fundamentalist atheists like Bunyip explain away multiple manuscript copies, many of which are hostile sources, who never even THINK to question whether Jesus existed as a human being. They all just assumed he was human and, if hostile, attacked Jesus' personage on other grounds, such as calling him the son of a prostitute.

Well yes of course - because Paul only met what he imagined to be a spirit, not Jesus. Paul does not evidence the historicity of Jesus - because he did not meet him. Seriously mate - I LOVE how you don't understsnd why Paul's meeting the ghost Jesus doesn't count as testimony to the historical Jesus. The ghost Jesus is not the historical Jesus my little friend.;)

Again, belting this out for the cheap seats: PAUL MET JESUS' BROTHER. I am not holding my breath for any rational explanation for how one can have a human brother without being human himself because none exists. Bunyip's intellectual dishonesty knows no bounds.
 
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