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How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

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Sapiens

Polymathematician
Here we go again, about as interesting as playing duplicate bridge with yourself. Anyway, if what Josephus wrote about Jesus is creditable enough to be considered true, why is not what he wrote about Hercules also considered creditable enough to be considered true? Sounds like a Christian double standard to me.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Would any Jew crucified by the Romans round about 2000 years ago during Passover constitute as a “historical Jesus”? In other words, define “historical Jesus”.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Would any Jew crucified by the Romans round about 2000 years ago during Passover constitute as a “historical Jesus”? In other words, define “historical Jesus”.
The story about the Son of God that came to earth is based on an historical figure, no I am not kidding, I am not making this up, some believe there are facts to be garnered from the gospel narratives.
 
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fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Would any Jew crucified by the Romans round about 2000 years ago during Passover constitute as a “historical Jesus”? In other words, define “historical Jesus”.
After all this time someone asked for a definition. Thank you.

For me when I talk about the historical Jesus, I am talking about a guy with the name Jesus (with proper language translation), living around 2000 years ago, born in Nazareth, met with a guy known as John the Baptist, started a somewhat small movement of his own, created some kind of fuss at the temple, and got crucified by the Romans. Seven little details there, enough I think to refer to a specific historical person.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
During the first century the Romans had crucified thousands of Jews. There were 100 Passovers during the first century. There were at least a handful of would be Messiahs that came and gone. It’s difficult to get an accurate count on how many. Hmm, so what are the odds there was a “historical Jesus”?
 

roger1440

I do stuff
fantôme profane;3946389 said:
After all this time someone asked for a definition. Thank you.

For me when I talk about the historical Jesus, I am talking about a guy with the name Jesus (with proper language translation), living around 2000 years ago, born in Nazareth, met with a guy known as John the Baptist, started a somewhat small movement of his own, created some kind of fuss at the temple, and got crucified by the Romans. Seven little details there, enough I think to refer to a specific historical person.
If only six are met, would that be enough? If you say yes, you know where I'm going with this, LOL.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
fantôme profane;3946394 said:
I suppose it depends on which six. But yes I get the point, and it is open to negotiation.
Unless there is an agreement on what to search for, how would we know if we found the right guy?

Suppose John the Baptist's name was really Clyde the Plunger, does that count?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Unless there is an agreement on what to search for, how would we know if we found the right guy?

Suppose John the Baptist's name was really Clyde the Plunger, does that count?
This is where that funny thing called "evidence" comes in. Is there any evidence that his name was Clyde the Plunger?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It can be said with certainty.

An Aramaic Galilean traveling teacher who lived in Nazareth and was baptized by John took over Johns movement after his death. He Made at least one trip to Jerusalem during Passover under the reign of Pontius Pilate while Caiaphas was running the temple.

He had caused some kind of disturbance in the temple in which he was arrested at night as to not cause a riot, and was crucified.


This is the foundation as it stands, that has historicity.


Other s can build from this, and they often do, mirroring their pet projects. These range from, Pharisee to Zealot my favorite choice, as well as an Essene by others.

But to say he does not exist, is simply a state of ignorance on the topic. And you don't know what this ignorance is until you sit under a professor for hours learning what we actually know and do not know.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
fantôme profane;3946400 said:
This is where that funny thing called "evidence" comes in. Is there any evidence that his name was Clyde the Plunger?
Actually when you come down to it, there isn’t any evidence concerning Jesus.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Actually when you come down to it, there isn’t any evidence concerning Jesus.

Factually wrong


There is evidence of all kinds, good evidence, bad evidence, poor evidence, and great evidence.


Unfortunately most of it is not "great" The gospels are factual evidence, and so is Josephus. Even Pauls Epistles are evidence.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
If Josephus' two accounts are true about Jesus, at the very best what is true is that the accounts were believed at the time Josephus wrote them. Josephus was not an eyewitness to what he wrote about concerning Jesus.
There are two accounts of Jesus and one of John. John's passage is seen as authentic. Book 18, chapter 5, is seen has Christian interpolation and is partially authentic. Book 20, chapter 9, is seen as authentic but a number of people dispute this. There are a number of points which do not line up given the rest of the accounts within the whole text. So the only source which is agreed upon does nothing to support Jesus. The other two sources are contested. There is also the issue of sources used by Josephus which is simple put we do not know if his sources are heresay, common knowledge or reports from believers themselves. Roman sources make it clear that the sources are Christians themselves. Josephus makes no claims and we only rely upon the accuracy of verified events as an indictation his work on Jesus is the same. This is lazy scholarship in my opinion. The external sources for Jesus are very weak to put it nicely. However since fence sitting frowned upon people choose yay or nay.
 
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steeltoes

Junior member
We have evidence of ancient religious texts and no shortage of believers that repeat over and over again that they are reading the truth, in spite of the fact that there is not a single thing to substantiate the story about the Son of God that came to earth to redeem mankind.
 
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