How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

[JM2C]

We know they had Temple Virgins - Emmanuel is Isaiah's son by a Temple Virgin.

From what verse did you get this? Isaiah 7:14 is about the LXX parthenos "virgin", and the Hebrew ha'almah or almah "young woman" and Matthew’s 1:23 “parthenos”

 

[JM2C]

Sure, you have a solid point there. Connecting the infant Jesus to the adult is as problematic as is connecting the adult to the resirrected Jesus.

Read the 4 gospels and Paul's and you will see that they are all connected with no problem at all.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

So you do agree with Bunyip that the answer to the thread's question is : No, we cannot be certain..... 2000 years ago, and no single written testimony by any witness. Ergo, no primary evidence. And no direct evidence of any kind

Ain't that great, us all agreeing with each other..... Good. :yes:


The rest of your post? :sleep:

First off, I disagree with the notion that there is "no single written testimony by any witness".

So I guess we don't all agree with each other.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Nah, it's just a matter of separating fact from fiction.

And I'd really like to know your criterion for separating fact from fiction.

You want me to explain the process of how myth forms to you?

No.

You don't have any evidence of that.

Well in that case there is no evidence for anything that is considered historical...since everything is based on hearsay. So if there is no evidence that Paul wrote 1Corinithians (which is not disputed among historians anyway), then there is also no evidence that Caesar was stabbed, that George Washington was President, or that Hannibal rode war elephants.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Sadly, if somebody has a suspicious nature, NOTHING will cut through their distrust..

WIKI- Paranoid personality disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis characterized by a pervasive and long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others
Paranoid personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Their view of the Bible..-
Genesis- LIES!
Exodus- LIES!
Leviticus- LIES!
Numbers- LIES!
Deuteronomy-LIES!
Joshua- LIES!
Judges-LIES!
Ruth-LIES!
1 Samuel-LIES!
2 Samuel- LIES!
1 Kings- LIES!
2 Kings- LIES!
1 Chronicles-LIES!
2 Chronicles-LIES!
Ezra- LIES!
Nehemiah-LIES!
Esther-LIES!
Job-LIES!
Psalms-LIES!
Proverbs-LIES!
Ecclesiastes-LIES!
Song of Solomon-LIES!
Isaiah-LIES!
Jeremiah-LIES!
Lamentations-LIES!
Ezekiel- LIES!
Daniel- LIES!
Hosea- LIES!
Joel-LIES!
Amos-LIES!
Obadiah-LIES!
Jonah-LIES!
Micah-LIES!
Nahum-LIES!
Habakkuk-LIES!
Zephaniah-LIES!
Haggai-LIES!
Zecharia-LIES!
Malachi-LIES!
Matthew-LIES!
Mark-LIES!
Luke-LIES!
John- LIES!
The Acts-LIES!
Romans-LIES!
1 Corinthians-LIES!
2 Corinthians- LIES!
Galatians-LIES!
Ephesians- LIES!
Phillipians-LIES!
Colossians-LIES!
1 Thessalonians-LIES!
2 Thessalonians-LIES!
1 Timothy-LIES!
2 Timothy-LIES!
Titus-LIES!
Philemon- LIES!
Hebrews- LIES!
James-LIES!
1 Peter-LIES!
2 Peter- LIES!
1 John- LIES!
2 John-LIES!
3 John-LIES!
Jude-LIES!
Revelation-LIES!

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Sadly, if somebody has a suspicious nature, NOTHING will cut through their distrust..

WIKI- Paranoid personality disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis characterized by a pervasive and long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others
Paranoid personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Their view of the Bible..-
Genesis- LIES!
Exodus- LIES!
Leviticus- LIES!
Numbers- LIES!
Deuteronomy-LIES!
Joshua- LIES!
Judges-LIES!
Ruth-LIES!
1 Samuel-LIES!
2 Samuel- LIES!
1 Kings- LIES!
2 Kings- LIES!
1 Chronicles-LIES!
2 Chronicles-LIES!
Ezra- LIES!
Nehemiah-LIES!
Esther-LIES!
Job-LIES!
Psalms-LIES!
Proverbs-LIES!
Ecclesiastes-LIES!
Song of Solomon-LIES!
Isaiah-LIES!
Jeremiah-LIES!
Lamentations-LIES!
Ezekiel- LIES!
Daniel- LIES!
Hosea- LIES!
Joel-LIES!
Amos-LIES!
Obadiah-LIES!
Jonah-LIES!
Micah-LIES!
Nahum-LIES!
Habakkuk-LIES!
Zephaniah-LIES!
Haggai-LIES!
Zecharia-LIES!
Malachi-LIES!
Matthew-LIES!
Mark-LIES!
Luke-LIES!
John- LIES!
The Acts-LIES!
Romans-LIES!
1 Corinthians-LIES!
2 Corinthians- LIES!
Galatians-LIES!
Ephesians- LIES!
Phillipians-LIES!
Colossians-LIES!
1 Thessalonians-LIES!
2 Thessalonians-LIES!
1 Timothy-LIES!
2 Timothy-LIES!
Titus-LIES!
Philemon- LIES!
Hebrews- LIES!
James-LIES!
1 Peter-LIES!
2 Peter- LIES!
1 John- LIES!
2 John-LIES!
3 John-LIES!
Jude-LIES!
Revelation-LIES!

And yet people who don't believe the bible can still be perrfectly rational people justifying their beliefs. But then there are people who won't accept things are different than how they believe despite new evidence. True-believer syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..But then there are people who won't accept things are different than how they believe despite new evidence. True-believer syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scientists can be like that too..
For examp, Dawks says the eye is inefficiently wired up back to front, but even though biologists have pointed out to him that he's wrong, he's STILL letting his claim stand (as far as I know)-

"Prof. Dawkins idea that the eye is wired backward comes from a lack of knowledge of eye function and anatomy"
Book review of Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable - creation.com
Mueller cells backwardly wired retina v Dawkins - creation.com

 

[outhouse]

And yet people who don't believe the bible can still be perrfectly rational people justifying their beliefs. But then there are people who won't accept things are different than how they believe despite new evidence. True-believer syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In this case I think its just severe biblical ignorance.


Someone placing religion before reality, does not see their own blindness.


So now all credible work no matter how it is presented, is the dirty devil. Fanaticism


And yes the syndrome breeds fundamentalism.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Scientists can be like that too..
For examp, Dawks says the eye is inefficiently wired up back to front, but even though biologists have pointed out to him that he's wrong, he's STILL letting his claim stand (as far as I know)-

"Prof. Dawkins idea that the eye is wired backward comes from a lack of knowledge of eye function and anatomy"
Book review of Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable - creation.com
Mueller cells backwardly wired retina v Dawkins - creation.com

Compared to a man made camera it is inefficiently made. And I am not stating that atheists are immune to "true believer syndrome" as it doesn't just consider religion.
My point is that you can't keep the biblical accounts and hold the bible to the same degree (usually a higher degree) than historical sources and cross verified evidences. "If we can't trust the bible then all of history is just as unkown" is just a ridiculous statement that is reductio ad absurdum

 

[fantome profane]

Scientists can be like that too..
For examp, Dawks says the eye is inefficiently wired up back to front, but even though biologists have pointed out to him that he's wrong, he's STILL letting his claim stand (as far as I know)-

"Prof. Dawkins idea that the eye is wired backward comes from a lack of knowledge of eye function and anatomy"
Book review of Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable - creation.com
Mueller cells backwardly wired retina v Dawkins - creation.com

So you read book reviews of Dawkins' books. But have you ever actually read one of his books?

 

[Sapiens]

Book reviews that, might I mention, are on creation.com, land of the deepest quote mine in the universe.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

[re the eye]..Compared to a man made camera it is inefficiently made..

Considering Dawks claims the eye is wired up back to front, my eyesight is pretty good, I can easily spot a pretty woman from the other end of a crowded street..

 

[Shuttlecraft]

So you read book reviews of Dawkins' books. But have you ever actually read one of his books?

Yeah I bought his 'Climbing Mt Improbable' about 15 years ago to get a top-notch scientific explanation of evolution, but was disappointed to find it was full of holes, gaps and missing links, so I snail-mailed Dawkins to tell him how disappointing it was, and he wrote back saying- "Of course it's full of missing links.." as if it was perfectly normal!
So until he and his chums can plug the holes, he might just as well be whistling dixie cos i ain't buying his theories..

 

[oldbadger]

Considering Dawks claims the eye is wired up back to front, my eyesight is pretty good, I can easily spot a pretty woman from the other end of a crowded street..

...that's two English pervs on RF!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yeah I bought his 'Climbing Mt Improbable' about 15 years ago to get a top-notch scientific explanation of evolution, but was disappointed to find it was full of holes, gaps and missing links, ...

Name three.

..., so I snail-mailed Dawkins to tell him how disappointing it was, and he wrote back saying- "Of course it's full of missing links.." as if it was perfectly normal!

No doubt …

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Shuttlecraft: Considering Dawks claims the eye is wired up back to front, my eyesight is pretty good, I can easily spot a pretty woman from the other end of a crowded street..

...that's two English pervs on RF!

I can't help it mate, my DNA is hardwired to find women attractive and when I see one I want to write soppy poems to her, buy her jewellery and tell her how beautiful and precious she is to me..
(Oops sorry, was I ranting?)

In fact I often walk along the seafront looking for American widows off the ocean liners that sometimes dock here, in the hope that after a whirlwind romance we'll get married and she'll take me back to spend the rest of our lives together by her Miami poolside.
Alternatively a ranch-owning woman would be fine like the one below, she could rope me, throw me and brand me any time she likes-

 

[oldbadger]

I can't help it mate, my DNA is hardwired to find women attractive and when I see one I want to write soppy poems to her, buy her jewellery and tell her how beautiful and precious she is to me..
(Oops sorry, was I ranting?)

In fact I often walk along the seafront looking for American widows off the ocean liners that sometimes dock here, in the hope that after a whirlwind romance we'll get married and she'll take me back to spend the rest of our lives together by her Miami poolside.
Alternatively a ranch-owning woman would be fine like the one below, she could rope me, throw me and brand me any time she likes-

We must see if we can get away with running a pervs thread.....

Right...... back to HJ...
So do you believe in the Bethlehem birth, if so, which version..... Mat's or Luke's??

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Shuttlecraft: I bought his 'Climbing Mt Improbable' about 15 years ago to get a top-notch scientific explanation of evolution, but was disappointed to find it was full of holes, gaps and missing links

Name three.

Here's a whole truckload in just one sentence mate-

"My guess is that both bats and birds evolved flight by gliding downwards from the trees.. Here’s one guess as to how flying got started in birds.. Perhaps birds began by leaping off the ground while bats began gliding out of trees. Or perhaps birds too began by gliding out of trees" (Dawkins, Climbing Mt Imp, pp 113–4)

 

[Ingledsva]

To ancient cultures, didn't "virginity" really mean just a state of being unmarried? That's how I understand it, and it's really only today's concept of virginity that makes it mean no sexual activity.

Yep, in some cases it does.


We know some groups hade "Virgins" that had sex, and regained virginity, like some Goddesses.


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[Ingledsva]

Hi...
Earlier I mentioned that Mary might have been raped by Romans during, just before or just after the Sepphoris incident. I honestly don't know what Prophet read into my posts........ some members just do my head in.

Or not raped, - just a youthful indiscretion.


Or a planed pregnancy, - in an attempt to bring the awaited Messiah to life, through a favored Temple Virgin, like in the Isaiah and the Temple Virgin story, to throw off the Roman yoke.


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