How come the occult is a sin?

[Kristoffer]

Read the following short story:

"1 Samuel 28 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Saul Talks with Samuel’s Ghost
28 1-3 Samuel had died some time earlier,[a] and people from all over Israel had attended his funeral in his hometown of Ramah.

Meanwhile, Saul had been trying to get rid of everyone who spoke with the spirits of the dead.[b] But one day the Philistines brought their soldiers together to attack Israel.

Achish told David, “Of course, you know that you and your men must fight as part of our Philistine army.”

David answered, “That will give you a chance to see for yourself just how well we can fight!”

“In that case,” Achish said, “you and your men will always be my bodyguards.”

4 The Philistines went to Shunem and set up camp. Saul called the army of Israel together, and they set up their camp in Gilboa. 5 Saul took one look at the Philistine army and started shaking with fear. 6 So he asked the Lord what to do. But the Lord would not answer, either in a dream or by a priest or a prophet. 7 Then Saul told his officers, “Find me a woman who can talk to the spirits of the dead. I’ll go to her and find out what’s going to happen.”

His servants told him, “There’s a woman at Endor who can talk to spirits of the dead.”

8 That night, Saul put on different clothing so nobody would recognize him. Then he and two of his men went to the woman, and asked, “Will you bring up the ghost of someone for us?”

9 The woman said, “Why are you trying to trick me and get me killed? You know King Saul has gotten rid of everyone who talks to the spirits of the dead!”

10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”

11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.

“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”

13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”

She answered, “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”

14 “What does it look like?”

“It looks like an old man wearing a robe.”

Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.

15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.

“I’m terribly worried,” Saul answered. “The Philistines are about to attack me. God has turned his back on me and won’t answer any more by prophets or by dreams. What should I do?”

16 Samuel said:

If the Lord has turned away from you and is now your enemy, don’t ask me what to do. 17 I’ve already told you: The Lord has sworn to take the kingdom from you and give it to David. And that’s just what he’s doing! 18 When the Lord was angry with the Amalekites, he told you to destroy them, but you didn’t do it. That’s why the Lord is doing this to you. 19 Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead.

20 At once, Saul collapsed and lay stretched out on the floor, terrified at what Samuel had said. He was weak because he had not eaten anything since the day before.

21 The woman came over to Saul, and when she saw that he was completely terrified, she said, “Your Majesty, I listened to you and risked my life to do what you asked. 22 Now please listen to me. Let me get you a little something to eat. It will give you strength for your walk back to camp.”

23 “No, I won’t eat!”

But his officers and the woman kept on urging Saul, until he finally agreed. He got up off the floor and sat on the bed. 24 Right away the woman killed a calf that she had been fattening up. She cooked part of the meat and baked some thin bread.[c] 25 Then she served the food to Saul and his officers, who ate and left before daylight."

1. I understand this story as that Saul came closer to Gods will when using the necromancer to talk with the spirit of Salomo, because the spirit of Salomo told Saul how to get on the right path.
a) - Can someone explain to me why this was wrong of Saul? The occult helped Saul to reach God in the sense of telling him.
b) - Couldn't this be a tool to get guidance from other prophets as well, in the search of doing Gods will?

2. I christian faith there is also tabu to try to read the future, but in this story Solomo himself predicts the future to Saul. Why is this legal in christian faith?

3. What do you think christian and jewish faith thinks is the bad side of doing occultism?

4. What do you think 3.book of moses 19;31-32 that you shouldnt seek out the occult, but rather respect the elders? Whys that (from a christian and jewish perspective), you think?
a) 19;26 says that we shouldn't use astrology, and in 20;27 it stands that the occultists shall be killed by the tribe. Why do you think the jews got laws as this?
b) Does these laws have anything with christianity to do, you think, or was it strictly prohibited for the jews?


I appreciate all answers!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Simple. Christians believe that when you practice the occult, youre getting "powers" or sohaveyou that does not come frlm God. Occult practices in the bible are things like divination and sorcery. Both are not relying on God but other external sources. As for the below, other more biblical literate people can put that in context for you, I hope.

Read the following short story:

"1 Samuel 28 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Saul Talks with Samuel’s Ghost
28 1-3 Samuel had died some time earlier,[a] and people from all over Israel had attended his funeral in his hometown of Ramah.

Meanwhile, Saul had been trying to get rid of everyone who spoke with the spirits of the dead.[b] But one day the Philistines brought their soldiers together to attack Israel.

Achish told David, “Of course, you know that you and your men must fight as part of our Philistine army.”

David answered, “That will give you a chance to see for yourself just how well we can fight!”

“In that case,” Achish said, “you and your men will always be my bodyguards.”

4 The Philistines went to Shunem and set up camp. Saul called the army of Israel together, and they set up their camp in Gilboa. 5 Saul took one look at the Philistine army and started shaking with fear. 6 So he asked the Lord what to do. But the Lord would not answer, either in a dream or by a priest or a prophet. 7 Then Saul told his officers, “Find me a woman who can talk to the spirits of the dead. I’ll go to her and find out what’s going to happen.”

His servants told him, “There’s a woman at Endor who can talk to spirits of the dead.”

8 That night, Saul put on different clothing so nobody would recognize him. Then he and two of his men went to the woman, and asked, “Will you bring up the ghost of someone for us?”

9 The woman said, “Why are you trying to trick me and get me killed? You know King Saul has gotten rid of everyone who talks to the spirits of the dead!”

10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”

11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.

“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”

13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”

She answered, “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”

14 “What does it look like?”

“It looks like an old man wearing a robe.”

Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.

15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.

“I’m terribly worried,” Saul answered. “The Philistines are about to attack me. God has turned his back on me and won’t answer any more by prophets or by dreams. What should I do?”

16 Samuel said:

If the Lord has turned away from you and is now your enemy, don’t ask me what to do. 17 I’ve already told you: The Lord has sworn to take the kingdom from you and give it to David. And that’s just what he’s doing! 18 When the Lord was angry with the Amalekites, he told you to destroy them, but you didn’t do it. That’s why the Lord is doing this to you. 19 Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead.

20 At once, Saul collapsed and lay stretched out on the floor, terrified at what Samuel had said. He was weak because he had not eaten anything since the day before.

21 The woman came over to Saul, and when she saw that he was completely terrified, she said, “Your Majesty, I listened to you and risked my life to do what you asked. 22 Now please listen to me. Let me get you a little something to eat. It will give you strength for your walk back to camp.”

23 “No, I won’t eat!”

But his officers and the woman kept on urging Saul, until he finally agreed. He got up off the floor and sat on the bed. 24 Right away the woman killed a calf that she had been fattening up. She cooked part of the meat and baked some thin bread.[c] 25 Then she served the food to Saul and his officers, who ate and left before daylight."

1. I understand this story as that Saul came closer to Gods will when using the necromancer to talk with the spirit of Salomo, because the spirit of Salomo told Saul how to get on the right path.
a) - Can someone explain to me why this was wrong of Saul? The occult helped Saul to reach God in the sense of telling him.
b) - Couldn't this be a tool to get guidance from other prophets as well, in the search of doing Gods will?

2. I christian faith there is also tabu to try to read the future, but in this story Solomo himself predicts the future to Saul. Why is this legal in christian faith?

3. What do you think christian and jewish faith thinks is the bad side of doing occultism?

4. What do you think 3.book of moses 19;31-32 that you shouldnt seek out the occult, but rather respect the elders? Whys that (from a christian and jewish perspective), you think?
a) 19;26 says that we shouldn't use astrology, and in 20;27 it stands that the occultists shall be killed by the tribe. Why do you think the jews got laws as this?
b) Does these laws have anything with christianity to do, you think, or was it strictly prohibited for the jews?


I appreciate all answers!

 

[Desert Snake]

I believe in astrology, and it isn't necessarily the 'occult', by definition. There isn't any negativity for this considering theological beliefs, imo. The Bible 'says', a lot of things, we have to interpret them properly. If people really went by all the seeming 'rules', in the Bible, it would not look like what people are practicing, anyways

 

[Forever_Catholic]

I believe in astrology, and it isn't necessarily the 'occult', by definition.

It's not necessarily occult, but can lead to the occult. It was banned very early in Christianity. There's an article here with a lot of pertinent info about astrology, if you're interested:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Astrology

And some info on divination and magic according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

2138 Superstition is a departure from the worship that we give to the true God. It is manifested in idolatry, as well as in various forms of divination and magic.

 

[InChrist]

I think God warns against occult practices to protect us because when humans look to supernatural sources besides God the Creator they are easily deceived and led to believe things which are false even making important life decisions based on such falsehoods which can have devastating impact on one's life.

 

[Ingledsva]

Read the following short story:

"1 Samuel 28 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Saul Talks with Samuel’s Ghost
28 1-3 Samuel had died some time earlier,[a] and people from all over Israel had attended his funeral in his hometown of Ramah.

Meanwhile, Saul had been trying to get rid of everyone who spoke with the spirits of the dead.[b] But one day the Philistines brought their soldiers together to attack Israel.

Achish told David, “Of course, you know that you and your men must fight as part of our Philistine army.”

David answered, “That will give you a chance to see for yourself just how well we can fight!”

“In that case,” Achish said, “you and your men will always be my bodyguards.”

4 The Philistines went to Shunem and set up camp. Saul called the army of Israel together, and they set up their camp in Gilboa. 5 Saul took one look at the Philistine army and started shaking with fear. 6 So he asked the Lord what to do. But the Lord would not answer, either in a dream or by a priest or a prophet. 7 Then Saul told his officers, “Find me a woman who can talk to the spirits of the dead. I’ll go to her and find out what’s going to happen.”

His servants told him, “There’s a woman at Endor who can talk to spirits of the dead.”

8 That night, Saul put on different clothing so nobody would recognize him. Then he and two of his men went to the woman, and asked, “Will you bring up the ghost of someone for us?”

9 The woman said, “Why are you trying to trick me and get me killed? You know King Saul has gotten rid of everyone who talks to the spirits of the dead!”

10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”

11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.

“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”

13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”

She answered, “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”

14 “What does it look like?”

“It looks like an old man wearing a robe.”

Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.

15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.

“I’m terribly worried,” Saul answered. “The Philistines are about to attack me. God has turned his back on me and won’t answer any more by prophets or by dreams. What should I do?”

16 Samuel said:

If the Lord has turned away from you and is now your enemy, don’t ask me what to do. 17 I’ve already told you: The Lord has sworn to take the kingdom from you and give it to David. And that’s just what he’s doing! 18 When the Lord was angry with the Amalekites, he told you to destroy them, but you didn’t do it. That’s why the Lord is doing this to you. 19 Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead.

20 At once, Saul collapsed and lay stretched out on the floor, terrified at what Samuel had said. He was weak because he had not eaten anything since the day before.

21 The woman came over to Saul, and when she saw that he was completely terrified, she said, “Your Majesty, I listened to you and risked my life to do what you asked. 22 Now please listen to me. Let me get you a little something to eat. It will give you strength for your walk back to camp.”

23 “No, I won’t eat!”

But his officers and the woman kept on urging Saul, until he finally agreed. He got up off the floor and sat on the bed. 24 Right away the woman killed a calf that she had been fattening up. She cooked part of the meat and baked some thin bread.[c] 25 Then she served the food to Saul and his officers, who ate and left before daylight."

1. I understand this story as that Saul came closer to Gods will when using the necromancer to talk with the spirit of Salomo, because the spirit of Salomo told Saul how to get on the right path.
a) - Can someone explain to me why this was wrong of Saul? The occult helped Saul to reach God in the sense of telling him.
b) - Couldn't this be a tool to get guidance from other prophets as well, in the search of doing Gods will?

2. I christian faith there is also tabu to try to read the future, but in this story Solomo himself predicts the future to Saul. Why is this legal in christian faith?

3. What do you think christian and jewish faith thinks is the bad side of doing occultism?

4. What do you think 3.book of moses 19;31-32 that you shouldnt seek out the occult, but rather respect the elders? Whys that (from a christian and jewish perspective), you think?
a) 19;26 says that we shouldn't use astrology, and in 20;27 it stands that the occultists shall be killed by the tribe. Why do you think the jews got laws as this?
b) Does these laws have anything with christianity to do, you think, or was it strictly prohibited for the jews?


I appreciate all answers!

When God didn't answer him - he did what his people had been doing all along - talk to the dead in Sheol.

I've put in information on this practice before.

Bible Review has an article about this called - AFTERLIFE Ancient Israel's Changing Vision Of The World Beyond.

They asked dead relatives, or special dead people, to help them, or to intercede with God for them. In the story above, he called up a prophet to give prophecy.

*

 

[JayJayDee]

1. I understand this story as that Saul came closer to Gods will when using the necromancer to talk with the spirit of Salomo, because the spirit of Salomo told Saul how to get on the right path.
a) - Can someone explain to me why this was wrong of Saul? The occult helped Saul to reach God in the sense of telling him.

When Saul communicated with the spirit world, he was breaking the law of God. (Deut 18:9-12) This carried the death penalty.
Saul, as Israel's first human king was the one who decreed that all spirit mediums should be removed from the land. This one, at Endor escaped his edict. She feared punishment.

b) - Couldn't this be a tool to get guidance from other prophets as well, in the search of doing Gods will?

NEVER! God would never use a spirit medium to communicate with his faithful servants. Consider that Saul never saw or heard the "spirit" that spoke to the woman. She relayed what the spirit looked like and what it said to Saul. There was nothing in what it said that Saul wouldn't have already suspected.

Consider also that God had abandoned the disobedient and disloyal king and his prophets would not speak with him. If this "spirit" was Samuel, why would a dead prophet speak to the king when the living ones wouldn't?

2. I christian faith there is also tabu to try to read the future, but in this story Solomo himself predicts the future to Saul. Why is this legal in christian faith?

It was illegal to use fortune tellers to predict the future....all legitimate prophesy came through God's appointed prophets.
The difference was in the source of the information. The spirit world that communicates rhrough mediums is from the devil....the Bible is a record of God's prophesies and their fulfilment by the words of his prophets. Whatever comes from outside this source is not from God. The advice that Saul got was deceptive...it was NOT from "Samuel".

3. What do you think christian and jewish faith thinks is the bad side of doing occultism?

I can only give you the Christian perspective, which is based on the whole Bible.

"Occultism" (which means "hidden") is direct contact with demons, who can masquerade as the spirits of the dead, "hiding" who they really are. The Bible does not teach that the dead become spirits who can speak with the living. God had angels to do that and they always appeared as humans....in physical bodies, never as spirits.

4. What do you think 3.book of moses 19;31-32 that you shouldnt seek out the occult, but rather respect the elders? Whys that (from a christian and jewish perspective), you think?

"Elders" are the appointed shepherds. These are not prophets but those who teach what the prophets taught in the Bible. We as Christians are to obey their direction. (Heb 13:7, 17) Following the wrong shepherds is what gets people into trouble.

a) 19;26 says that we shouldn't use astrology, and in 20;27 it stands that the occultists shall be killed by the tribe. Why do you think the jews got laws as this?

The history of the Jewish nation is not one of obedience and loyalty to the commands of their God. Like Saul, many fell away to practices that were condemned by God. He punished them time and again for such apostasy and false worship.

2b Does these laws have anything with christianity to do, you think, or was it strictly prohibited for the jews?

Whatever applied to the Jews, applied also to Christians in principle. They did not worship a different God. Yahweh does not change his standards....only humans do. Jesus was not God incarnate....he was "the son of God" who was sent from heaven for a time and a specific purpose....to be the long awaited Messiah. He did not come to establish a new "religion", but came to clean up the worship of his Father for all who cared about obedience and loyalty to him.

Fascination with the occult has led many into demon harassment, which as anyone who has experienced it can tell you.....it can be quite distressing. Only strong faith and God's spirit can conquer their power.

I appreciate all answers!

Hope that helps.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I appreciate all answers!

The story of Samuel's ghost at first seems very weird and difficult to explain at all, Biblically. There is nothing else like it anywhere else in the 'Bible', but that is not unusual for things in the books 1 & 2 Samuel. There are many unusual events in there.

Remember that 1 Samuel is the story of how Israel degrades from being a nation ruled only by the LORD to became a nation ruled by a king. This idolatrous act is the defining error which leads to so many other problems for Israel. It is the terrible moment. All the other books either lead up to this mistake or show the fallout from it. Almost all of the succeeding parts of the Bible build upon this to show all of the problems that this dynastic impulse introduces. All of the exiles are caused by this. Samuel is there right at the beginning, observing the horror. He is the one standing there when Israel chooses a king, so he is like the conscience of Israel in this matter. As Saul, in a panic, tries to contact Samuel in a desperate attempt to find out what can be done, Samuel's words to him lack all comfort and warmth: "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has departed from you and become your enemy?"(NIV)

The answer, since we're in Biblical debates forum, is limited to 'Biblical' answers. Now the fact that you can't actually bring up Samuel from the dead is pretty obvious, because all you have to do is have a séance and try for yourself. Go ahead and try. This story however suggests that you should be able to call up Samuel and ask him about Israel's mistake. If you will he is the books Samuel 1 and 2. When you read them you are summoning his ghost, so-to-speak; and he will tell you about Israel's error.

Kristoffer, welcome to the forum. I notice you haven't made an introductory thread. Would you consider doing that and telling a few things like food you like or things you believe or hobbies or something like that?

 

[RedDragon94]

Read the following short story:

"1 Samuel 28 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Saul Talks with Samuel’s Ghost
28 1-3 Samuel had died some time earlier,[a] and people from all over Israel had attended his funeral in his hometown of Ramah.

Meanwhile, Saul had been trying to get rid of everyone who spoke with the spirits of the dead.[b] But one day the Philistines brought their soldiers together to attack Israel.

Achish told David, “Of course, you know that you and your men must fight as part of our Philistine army.”

David answered, “That will give you a chance to see for yourself just how well we can fight!”

“In that case,” Achish said, “you and your men will always be my bodyguards.”

4 The Philistines went to Shunem and set up camp. Saul called the army of Israel together, and they set up their camp in Gilboa. 5 Saul took one look at the Philistine army and started shaking with fear. 6 So he asked the Lord what to do. But the Lord would not answer, either in a dream or by a priest or a prophet. 7 Then Saul told his officers, “Find me a woman who can talk to the spirits of the dead. I’ll go to her and find out what’s going to happen.”

His servants told him, “There’s a woman at Endor who can talk to spirits of the dead.”

8 That night, Saul put on different clothing so nobody would recognize him. Then he and two of his men went to the woman, and asked, “Will you bring up the ghost of someone for us?”

9 The woman said, “Why are you trying to trick me and get me killed? You know King Saul has gotten rid of everyone who talks to the spirits of the dead!”

10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”

11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.

“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”

13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”

She answered, “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”

14 “What does it look like?”

“It looks like an old man wearing a robe.”

Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.

15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.

“I’m terribly worried,” Saul answered. “The Philistines are about to attack me. God has turned his back on me and won’t answer any more by prophets or by dreams. What should I do?”

16 Samuel said:

If the Lord has turned away from you and is now your enemy, don’t ask me what to do. 17 I’ve already told you: The Lord has sworn to take the kingdom from you and give it to David. And that’s just what he’s doing! 18 When the Lord was angry with the Amalekites, he told you to destroy them, but you didn’t do it. That’s why the Lord is doing this to you. 19 Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead.

20 At once, Saul collapsed and lay stretched out on the floor, terrified at what Samuel had said. He was weak because he had not eaten anything since the day before.

21 The woman came over to Saul, and when she saw that he was completely terrified, she said, “Your Majesty, I listened to you and risked my life to do what you asked. 22 Now please listen to me. Let me get you a little something to eat. It will give you strength for your walk back to camp.”

23 “No, I won’t eat!”

But his officers and the woman kept on urging Saul, until he finally agreed. He got up off the floor and sat on the bed. 24 Right away the woman killed a calf that she had been fattening up. She cooked part of the meat and baked some thin bread.[c] 25 Then she served the food to Saul and his officers, who ate and left before daylight."

1. I understand this story as that Saul came closer to Gods will when using the necromancer to talk with the spirit of Salomo, because the spirit of Salomo told Saul how to get on the right path.
a) - Can someone explain to me why this was wrong of Saul? The occult helped Saul to reach God in the sense of telling him.
b) - Couldn't this be a tool to get guidance from other prophets as well, in the search of doing Gods will?

2. I christian faith there is also tabu to try to read the future, but in this story Solomo himself predicts the future to Saul. Why is this legal in christian faith?

3. What do you think christian and jewish faith thinks is the bad side of doing occultism?

4. What do you think 3.book of moses 19;31-32 that you shouldnt seek out the occult, but rather respect the elders? Whys that (from a christian and jewish perspective), you think?
a) 19;26 says that we shouldn't use astrology, and in 20;27 it stands that the occultists shall be killed by the tribe. Why do you think the jews got laws as this?
b) Does these laws have anything with christianity to do, you think, or was it strictly prohibited for the jews?


I appreciate all answers!

1a. How did the "spirit of Samuel" help him get on the right path? Basically what the Spirit told him was that it was too late to repent.
1b. No, that's not the way you search for God's will. The Bible says that when we recognize that we are at the mercy of God, stop sinning, and pray to him seeking his will he will answer us and will guide us. However you can't stop sinning without Jesus being in your life. If you want to know the will of God I suggest you look to him and not to yourself or to the powers that the world tries to offer you. Only God is truly the one in power.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Depends on what you mean, specifically. Things like divination and astrology were practiced and accepted throughout the Bible. For example, the Three Magi were Persian astrologers following God's sign in the sky that marked the birth of Christ. What they had a problem with was pagan gods and malevolent sorcery.

Basically, Christianity allows the study of the occult and use of certain forms of knowledge, within limits. Certainly demonology is very occult but it's encouraged for Christians to study such a thing. The Lord also instructs us to pay attention to signs in the sky (astrology) since that's one of the ways that God speaks to us.

 

[Kristoffer]

Thank you all for answering - This explained a lot to me!

Depends on what you mean, specifically. Things like divination and astrology were practiced and accepted throughout the Bible. For example, the Three Magi were Persian astrologers following God's sign in the sky that marked the birth of Christ. What they had a problem with was pagan gods and malevolent sorcery.

Basically, Christianity allows the study of the occult and use of certain forms of knowledge, within limits. Certainly demonology is very occult but it's encouraged for Christians to study such a thing. The Lord also instructs us to pay attention to signs in the sky (astrology) since that's one of the ways that God speaks to us.

- Very good point! It would be nice if you got even more examples like this.

Just to come with more interesting thoughts if you have any!

 

[Kristoffer]

The history of the Jewish nation is not one of obedience and loyalty to the commands of their God. Like Saul, many fell away to practices that were condemned by God. He punished them time and again for such apostasy and false worship.

But how do you think about the wise men who used the stars as symbols to predict Jesus time and place of birth? See:

Depends on what you mean, specifically. Things like divination and astrology were practiced and accepted throughout the Bible. For example, the Three Magi were Persian astrologers following God's sign in the sky that marked the birth of Christ. What they had a problem with was pagan gods and malevolent sorcery.

Basically, Christianity allows the study of the occult and use of certain forms of knowledge, within limits. Certainly demonology is very occult but it's encouraged for Christians to study such a thing. The Lord also instructs us to pay attention to signs in the sky (astrology) since that's one of the ways that God speaks to us.

Whatever applied to the Jews, applied also to Christians in principle. They did not worship a different God. Yahweh does not change his standards....only humans do. Jesus was not God incarnate....he was "the son of God" who was sent from heaven for a time and a specific purpose....to be the long awaited Messiah. He did not come to establish a new "religion", but came to clean up the worship of his Father for all who cared about obedience and loyalty to him.

- Do you mean that the law about killing the practitioners that the jews had also is actual for the christians today? What then about the love for one another, and what Jesus said about turning the other cheek? In my view, this could be used as a defense for religious freedom, for example.

 

[JayJayDee]

But how do you think about the wise men who used the stars as symbols to predict Jesus time and place of birth?

Don't be fooled by the fact that the story is in the Bible, so astrology must be OK.
If you follow the account in Matthew ch 2, you will see things that are not obvious at first reading.

Two prophesies were fulfilled because of the magi's visit.

The announcement of the birth of Jesus was made by angels to Jewish shepherds, out in the fields at night. (Something they would not have been doing in the cold of winter. They shealtered their flocks indoors at night in winter.)
So the first mistake with the Christmas celebration is the date. Jesus was not born anywhere near December 25th. This date was already celebrated by the pagan Romans as the birthday of the sun god. When the early church deviated from true worship, they adopted many things from paganism so as to make conversion to Christianity easy. The pagans could still hold their favorite festivals, but just under another name. This however, did not "Christianize" paganism, but rather "paganized" Christianity. (Another topic)

With this pagan influence, astrology was glossed over as harmless, but in actual fact it was forbidden to God's people to have anything to do with the occult in any form, under penalty of death. (Deut 18:9-12) God does not change his standards, so it is still as dangerous to his worshippers today as it ever was. The occult is direct contact with rebellious spirits under satan's command. They can masquerade as 'angels of light'. (2 Cor 11:14, 15)

Consider: Why would God send a star to practicers of what he forbade, in order to guide them to his precious son?
What good did the magi's visit accomplish?

First of all this star moved in the sky and led them to Jerusalem, not Bethlehem where Jesus was born. What was the result of that? A wicked king got wind of a rival king that would, for all intents and purposes, knock his own son off the throne as future king of the Jews. What was Herod's first thought? To gather information and locate this child and dispose of the threat. He first gathered the Jewish elders and carefully ascertained "where" this king was to be born according to their scriptures...."Bethlehem". Then he feigned affection for this newborn king and asked when the magi first saw the star, and to locate him and then report back so that he too might render obeisance to him.

There was no ulterior motive for the magi's visit. Their custom was to give gifts to royal children and they had followed "his star" in order to fulfill their mission. But sadly, their visit resulted in the deaths of all the male infants, two years of age and under as Herod sought to destroy Jesus. This was fulfilment of the first prophesy. (Matt 2:16-18)

After their visit to Herod, the magi continued on following the star when it "came to a stop" above where the young child was. Where does Matthew say that they found Jesus? At the stable in Bethlehem? No! By the time the magi arrived, he was no longer a newborn baby but a "young child" (possibly two years old) living in a "house".

God warned the magi in a dream not to return to Herod, which precipitated his actions in sending his men to slaughter the infant males in Bethlehem. There was also a warning given to Joseph to take his son out of harm's way, so the family departed for Egypt. The fulfilment of the second prophesy came about when Herod died so they returned and settled in Nazareth. (Matt 2:19-23)

Now consider......were the magi sent by God? Was the star also sent by God? Or is there a more sinister plot attached to their visit? Were the magi and the star actually sent by God's enemy?

In order for these prophesies to be fulfilled, God did not prevent satan's attempt on Jesus' life, but demonstrated that nothing could thwart his purpose for Jesus to rescue Adam's children from sin and death and offer his life for them.

- Do you mean that the law about killing the practitioners that the jews had also is actual for the christians today? What then about the love for one another, and what Jesus said about turning the other cheek? In my view, this could be used as a defense for religious freedom, for example.

No, Christians do not kill anyone. They are to have love amongst themselves and even for their enemies....this was an identifying mark for them. (John 13:34, 35) The law of love in this instance would mean that we avoid all contact with the spirit world. Anything that has pagan origins is tied up with pagan worship. We have to separate ourselves from all of this, otherwise we will not be accepted as God's sons and daughters. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

As was the case with Jesus' apostles, their fight for religious freedom was fought under oppressive circumstances. Yet they never fought back in any physical way; they only used whatever legal means there was to defend their right to preach. Paul used the legal system in Rome to his advantage in establishing his right to practice his faith despite hostility from his own people. When he was under arrest, he did not plot his escape or try to break the law in any way, but used his circumstances to the best of his ability to offer the good news to anyone he came in contact with. We should emulate him.

Christians are at peace with God and with their fellow man. They are not out spilling blood.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Simple. Christians believe that when you practice the occult, youre getting "powers" or sohaveyou that does not come frlm God. Occult practices in the bible are things like divination and sorcery. Both are not relying on God but other external sources. As for the below, other more biblical literate people can put that in context for you, I hope.

Why wouldn't God be considered as an occult figure? Seems to meet all the criteria.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why wouldn't God be considered as an occult figure? Seems to meet all the criteria.

If it is coming from God, by christian terminology, its not the occult. They feel occult practicioners are doing what satan wants them to do. Christians blessings come from God not the devil.

 

[Ingledsva]

We have had whole threads on magic and the Bible.

It is definitely in there, and we proved it.

And we had Jewish members come in and say YES it was in there, and they gave us lists of the words and their meanings.

it is ridiculous to say under MY God's name it is godly and not magic, but the same exact things using YOUR God's name, are evil magic.

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[psychoslice]

Because god is a jealous god and doesn't like competition.

 

[JayJayDee]

We have had whole threads on magic and the Bible.

It is definitely in there, and we proved it.

There is no doubt that Israel fell away to false worship on many occasions but the practise of "magic" never had God's sanction. Those who had legitimate use of God's power were not condemned but those who use it illegitimately were.

And we had Jewish members come in and say YES it was in there, and they gave us lists of the words and their meanings.

Israel's history should give you a clue. They were told NOT to adopt the ways of the nations, but they disobeyed! God punished them for it. (Deut 18:9-12)

it is ridiculous to say under MY God's name it is godly and not magic, but the same exact things using YOUR God's name, are evil magic.

It is not ridiculous at all. God's power is used legitimately in all instances where his spirit displayed itself for his dIvine purpose. But those who used supernatural power illegitimately for their own purpose, whether angel or human was punished for doing so.

Why do you think that "magic" is only used in regard to those who were NOT God's servants. Magic is the devil's power, not Yahweh's.

 

[Ingledsva]

Because god is a jealous god and doesn't like competition.

Or more accurately his people don't.

Did you know that Paul was so full of himself - that he figured cloths that he had just touched, had magic power? He sent them out to people.

Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

There is a verse in the Christian Bible where the apostles are upset because a non-follower was doing magic, and healing, using the name of Jesus. They were told it was OK, because he used the name of Jesus. Speaks volumes to this subject.

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which can do a miracle in my name, that can after lightly speak evil of me.

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[Ingledsva]

There is no doubt that Israel fell away to false worship on many occasions but the practise of "magic" never had God's sanction. Those who had legitimate use of God's power were not condemned but those who use it illegitimately were.



Israel's history should give you a clue. They were told NOT to adopt the ways of the nations, but they disobeyed! God punished them for it. (Deut 18:9-12)



It is not ridiculous at all. God's power is used legitimately in all instances where his spirit displayed itself for his dIvine purpose. But those who used supernatural power illegitimately for their own purpose, whether angel or human was punished for doing so.

Why do you think that "magic" is only used in regard to those who were NOT God's servants. Magic is the devil's power, not Yahweh's.

You are so funny - you just ignore that the things the Hebrew did - even using Gods Name, - fall under the heading MAGIC, - and are called so when done not using his name!

According to the Bible -

They Scryed using bowls.

They put magic into objects.

They cursed people - to death.

They conjured up bears, etc.

They created potions to heal water, etc.

They created magic potions to be given to a woman accused of adultery - that was to make her miscarry if she was guilty.

They cast lots - think Runes - to decide events.

They conjured up the future.

They even tell us in there that they are Sorcerers of renown.

They said POWER WORDS and packed magic wands and staffs, for instance hitting a rock and producing water.

They did fertility magic with those wands/staffs.

In museums we have examples of magic bowls.

The idea that it doesn't say they did magic - is ridiculous!

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