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How did the first living thing on earth come to life?

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
wanderer085 said:
If god created it, what created god?
God is supposedly infinite. If that's the case, then nothing created him. He has always been in existence.

Infinite:
  1. Having no boundaries or limits.
  2. Immeasurably great or large; boundless: infinite patience; a discovery of infinite importance.
  3. Mathematics.
  4. Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.
  5. Unlimited in spatial extent: a line of infinite length.
  6. Of or relating to a set capable of being put into one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of itself.
 

Rough_ER

Member
Mister_T said:
God is supposedly infinite. If that's the case, then nothing created him. He has always been in existence.

Infinite:
  1. Having no boundaries or limits.
  2. Immeasurably great or large; boundless: infinite patience; a discovery of infinite importance.
  3. Mathematics.
  4. Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.
  5. Unlimited in spatial extent: a line of infinite length.
  6. Of or relating to a set capable of being put into one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of itself.

It's all too easy isn't it?
 

Flappycat

Well-Known Member
You still didn't explain how the joker got there. I could speculate that life is infinite, has always existed in the universe, and that abiogenesis was never necessary. The problem, though, is that it's cheap. It's a cheap folk theory.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Mister_T said:
God is supposedly infinite. If that's the case, then nothing created him. He has always been in existence.

Infinite:
  1. Having no boundaries or limits.
  2. Immeasurably great or large; boundless: infinite patience; a discovery of infinite importance.
  3. Mathematics.
  4. Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.
  5. Unlimited in spatial extent: a line of infinite length.
  6. Of or relating to a set capable of being put into one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of itself.

Except the multiverse is considered to be infinite by many scientists, so where is there a need for a god?
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Flappycat said:
You still didn't explain how the joker got there. I could speculate that life is infinite, has always existed in the universe, and that abiogenesis was never necessary. The problem, though, is that it's cheap. It's a cheap folk theory.
It is no more cheap than the "no god" theory.
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
wanderer085 said:
Except the multiverse is considered to be infinite by many scientists, so where is there a need for a god?
The need for a God comes from that fact that something doesn't appear from nothing.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Mister_T said:
The need for a God comes from that fact that something doesn't appear from nothing.

Are you talking about the laws of thermodynamics, or laws of matters, or is this a philosophical musing?
 

ch'ang

artist in training
Mister_T said:
The need for a God comes from that fact that something doesn't appear from nothing.

First of all some times in the subatomic world stuff does come from nothing, secondly why is god exempt from this rule?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I love quantum physics.... I can't do it, but its really fun stuff.
Thankfully I have a friend who can do the math and is patient enough to explain most of it to me. :D

as for god.... well "he's special". ;)

wa:do
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
greatcalgarian said:
Are you talking about the laws of thermodynamics, or laws of matters, or is this a philosophical musing?
It is a statement. Do what you'd like with it.
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
ch'ang said:
First of all some times in the subatomic world stuff does come from nothing, secondly why is god exempt from this rule?
1)Last time I checked, it was a scientific law that matter can neither be created or destroyed.
2)Why is God exempt? I don't know. That is how he's described in his books: Timeless and unchanging. It's a simple answer to an age old question. Whether it's true or not remains to be seen. If that doesn't float your boat, take it up with the authors.
 

Flappycat

Well-Known Member
Mister_T said:
1)Last time I checked, it was a scientific law that matter can neither be created or destroyed.
Actually, the theory that the universe's age is finite doesn't require for matter to arise from nothingness...possibly by definition. The "beginning of time" is postulated to be exactly that: the very beginning. There is no "before" if we are taking for granted that time has an absolute beginning. The universe, then, can be postulated to have had exactly as much energy in it at the beginning of time as it has presently. It would have been a whole universe packed into a singularity the size of a coin. Zero entropy.

However, one could also reject the theory that the universe is of finite age and postulate that its age is infinite. Stephen Hawking would have a conniption, but he could not deny that it's plausible under the assumption that his data is very faulty or incomplete. In fact, any scientist must acknowledge that his data may be faulty and take it for granted that he can only do his best to put one presumed fact together with another.

The problem with what you're saying is that we don't have a reliable basis for it. You can have a perfectly fine theory, but, without a basis in fact, it just doesn't amount to anything, even if it is plausible. Plausibility does not equate to evidence. There are a hundred million perfectly plausible claims that I could make, given my position. For example, I could posit the theory that you are secretly a transexual and have fantasies of playing strip poker with Newt Gingrich. There is no reason for me to consider this implausible. I could even calculate the probability of it based upon an estimation of the number of closet transexuals in the continental US in proportion to the population, another estimation of how likely one is to have a crush on Newt Gingrich, yet another estimation as to how likely one is to have a strip poker fetish, and a plausible theory as to how all of these variables would interact. What keeps this from being a fifty percent chance is that there are so many other types of people in the US. I could come up with hundreds of other plausible theories as to who you really are and what sort of person you are. Just because I cannot positively eliminate the possibility that you are a closet transexual who daydreams of playing strip poker with Newt Gingrich doesn't mean that my friends wouldn't consider me an outright moron for putting faith in the conclusion.

Introspection has its limits. We must know whether we are speaking in terms of introspection, under which we needn't rely upon facts, or science, in which facts are our bread and butter. We must be speaking in the same terms in order to effectively communicate and have a meaningful conversation on the subject.

If that doesn't float your boat, take it up with the authors.
In other words, you're just going by religious dogma. That's not quite as cheap as a folk theory, given that purportedly true events are described within, but what you just stated is the crux of the problem. The narrators cannot be held accountable for what they say because they died thousands of years ago. Without accountability, you have nothing of much worth.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
What is the difference between believing that the all creator with a single thought came into existence and a "Big Bang" started it all?

Both theories require unprovable faith in the unknown.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Life doesn't require something coming from nothing.

"inorganic" molicules and "organic" compounds are known to arrange themselves into amino acids and the other building blocks of life. Given the right conditions "life" seems to be inevitable.

wa:do
 

Flappycat

Well-Known Member
Reverend Rick said:
What is the difference between believing that the all creator with a single thought came into existence and a "Big Bang" started it all?

Both theories require unprovable faith in the unknown.
Dude, you're driving me bonkers. I'm not going to state this again. The person who postulates the big bang acknowledges that we're drawing from imperfect knowledge. We're not saying that we have absolute faith in it. We're just saying it's an impressive theory, assuming that our scientists are correct in a number of their observations and not taking into account data to which we do not have access as of yet and, for that matter, don't even have any business assuming exists until it has surfaced. We who support the Big Bang Theory are saying that, if it is assumed that our data is correct and complete, the universe really did start out with a bang. Now, it is, of course, ridiculous on the face of it to place absolute faith in the completeness of our data, which is why we call it a theory, rather than a belief. If we're admitting that it's a theory, not a belief, we can be forgiven for going on this assumption in discourse. We are quite open to the possibility that, one day, we'll gasp in admiration as yet another group of scientists take in and analyze new, more complete data and completely alter the postulation.
 

Flappycat

Well-Known Member
painted wolf said:
Life doesn't require something coming from nothing.

"inorganic" molicules and "organic" compounds are known to arrange themselves into amino acids and the other building blocks of life. Given the right conditions "life" seems to be inevitable.

wa:do
Pardon Mister_T, but I think that he was referring to something tangential to the topic. Although tangential, it does serve the purpose of broadening our understanding of the topic if we are clever enough.
 
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