How do Baha’is see atheists?

[Aupmanyav]

No, God is not going to punish anyone for not believing in Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah broke away from Islam so Muslims reject Him.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad provided no evidence for who he was. He is an outright fraud to tried to steal from Baha'u'llah. It is Baha'u'llah who came to establish the unity of God and to remind mankind of their duties towards God and His creation.

But that is how Bahaollah was threatening people with - "If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing!”

Why did Bahaollah break away from Islam? You accept Muhammad as a manifestation of Allah. If he said he was the last of messengers, and Quran is the last message from Allah, then that is the truth. Do you think what Muhammad said was a lie? Do manifestations lie? In that case, what is the guarantee that Bahaollah is correctly reporting from Allah? Why don't you clearly say that Muhammad was a liar and not a prophet from Allah? Remove him from your list of manifestations from Allah.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad gave just the same evidence of his being the Mahdi from Allah as Bahaollah gave for his being the manifestation of Allah - which means 'none at all', Zilch; so also for their Allah. So did the others who preceeded him, I.e., Muhammad, Jesus and Moses. That is the problem with Abrahamic religions, all claims, no evidence.

 

[Kfox]

No, I do not think that a voice coming from the clouds in the sky saying "I am God" would be more convincing for most people than a Messenger of God, prophet, or whatever you choose to call him. I do not even think most people would be convinced that voice in the sky was coming from God.

Please bear in mind that most people believe in God and the reason they believe is because of one of these individuals. If God's method of revealing His existence was so poor that it did not work to garner the belief of most people in the world then God might have used another method of communication.

84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but not a Messenger but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers or holy men very few people would believe in God.

Okay, I think I see where our misunderstanding is coming from. When I asked how come God doesn’t address the entire world from the clouds, I said to clear up all misunderstandings people have of him; not to convince people that he exists.
You mentioned Muslims and Christians as making up most of the world’s population. Yeah; but they don’t agree! If Islam were proven true, that would destroy Christianity because Christianity is built around Jesus dying on the cross for sins and ascending to heaven 3 days later. According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, Allah took him directly to Heaven. If it were proven Jesus was never crucified, Christian’s plan of salvation would be proven wrong; if it were proven he was crucified, Islam’s claim of Jesus would be proven wrong. And that’s just one claim of both religions; there are countless more where they disagree; the same goes for all the other religions. If God addressed the entire world as I suggested, either Islam, or Christianity would be proven false, (or perhaps both) as well as all the other religions because they all can’t be right.
So I ask; why doesn't he address the entire world himself in order to clear up all the misunderstandings people have of him?

I did not say you should not remain skeptical. I only suggest you should remain open-minded and by that I do not mean gullible.

If I were as closed minded as you seem to think I am, I would still be Christian.

 

[Kfox]

And how do we know the true prophets and messengers, supposedly they said and did things that came true and God, supposedly, did things to back them up.

I've mentioned to Baha'is how Elijah had God send fire from heaven and consume his sacrifice to prove that his God was real to the prophets of Baal. Could a Baha'i get God to do that today?

Then there is Jesus who God, supposedly, raised from the dead and caused people to come out of their graves and the Sun to be darkened. And this God, supposedly, did speak from heaven and said, "This is my beloved Son."

Those things are important for Jews and Christians to believe their prophets and Scriptures are true, but Baha'is don't believe those things really happened. The Baha'i God, although is powerful enough to create the Universe, can't speak, can't touch, can't do anything to prove himself to be real.

If their God can't do any of those things, kinda makes me wonder why they call him God?

So, what are we left with? Judging the Baha'i prophet by the things he said? And some people take his word for it, that he is sent from God, and some of us have read his stuff and, although some of it is alright, we find some of it problematic. And for several years now on the forum, Baha'is have no answer for the things some of us see as being a problem. It's been the same problems and same questions. And, since Baha'is have no answer, then is it that their God has no answer?

Definitely sounds that way.

 

[CG Didymus]

But that is how Bahaollah was threatening people with - "If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing!”

Why did Bahaollah break away from Islam? You accept Muhammad as a manifestation of Allah. If he said he was the last of messengers, and Quran is the last message from Allah, then that is the truth. Do you think what Muhammad said was a lie? Do manifestations lie? In that case, what is the guarantee that Bahaollah is correctly reporting from Allah? Why don't you clearly say that Muhammad was a liar and not a prophet from Allah? Remove him from your list of manifestations from Allah.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad gave just the same evidence of his being the Mahdi from Allah as Bahaollah gave for his being the manifestation of Allah - which means 'none at all', Zilch; so also for their Allah. So did the others who preceeded him, I.e., Muhammad, Jesus and Moses. That is the problem with Abrahamic religions, all claims, no evidence.

Yes, it sounds good to some people, and they become convinced it is true. For each one, it is the other prophet that is the liar. There are reasons to believe and reasons to reject all of them. It all depends on what a person wants to believe. But each religion rejects lots of things from the other religions. Religions that they claim are true and from the same God.

 

[Trailblazer]

And for several years now on the forum, Baha'is have no answer for the things some of us see as being a problem. It's been the same problems and same questions. And, since Baha'is have no answer, then is it that their God has no answer?

We have answers and we have presented the answers, you just don't LIKE the answers since they are not the answers that you want.

 

[Trailblazer]

But that is how Bahaollah was threatening people with - "If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing!”

God will punish false prophets because it is a serious offense to pretend one is a prophet when they are NOT a prophet since it results in misleading millions of people.

Why did Bahaollah break away from Islam? You accept Muhammad as a manifestation of Allah.

Baha'u'llah broke away from Islam because He received a new Revelation from God.

A revelation from God - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

If he said he was the last of messengers, and Quran is the last message from Allah, then that is the truth. Do you think what Muhammad said was a lie? Do manifestations lie?

No, Muhammad did not say that He was the last of the messengers...
Muhammad said that He was the Seal of the Prophets which clearly alludes to a lineage of Prophets from Adam to Muhammad.
Read this post: #2 adrian009

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad gave just the same evidence of his being the Mahdi from Allah as Bahaollah gave for his being the manifestation of Allah - which means 'none at all', Zilch;

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad gave NO evidence of his being the Mahdi from Allah.
Baha'ulah by contrast gave evidence that supported His claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

If their God can't do any of those things, kinda makes me wonder why they call him God?

I keep telling you that it is not about what God CAN do, it is about what God CHOOSES to do.
God does not do anything that God does not choose to do. Why would He? Nobody can make God do anything.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209​

He doth whatsoever He chooseth means He does not do anything He does not want to do, period.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, I think I see where our misunderstanding is coming from. When I asked how come God doesn’t address the entire world from the clouds, I said to clear up all misunderstandings people have of him; not to convince people that he exists.
If God addressed the entire world as I suggested, either Islam, or Christianity would be proven false, (or perhaps both) as well as all the other religions because they all can’t be right.
So I ask; why doesn't he address the entire world himself in order to clear up all the misunderstandings people have of him?

God did address the entire world and cleared up all the misunderstandings people have of Him.
God did that through Baha'u'llah and it's all in His Writings.

If I were as closed minded as you seem to think I am, I would still be Christian.

I did not say you are closed-minded. I suggested you should remain open-minded.
Do you think that all Christians are closed-minded?

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is have no answer for the things some of us see as being a problem. It's been the same problems and same questions.

Yes Baha'is, you do have some answers. But why don't I think they are good answers? Here's some of the same old questions... Baha'is make the "Three Woes" into their three prophets Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. To me, it has nothing to do with the context. If Baha'is can make it fit and are satisfied, then good for them. But it doesn't work for me.

Another typical question I ask is about the resurrection. The NT clearly states that Jesus came back to life. He was not a ghost, but he had flesh and bone. Baha'is make it what? A vision or something? And you make Jesus dead and gone. Since that is not what the NT says, then is it wrong? Sure, I'll accept that before I'll accept the Baha'i explanation that the whole resurrection story in the NT was meant to be symbolic.

Then there is "progressive" revelation. I don't see it. All religions evolved and progressed and changed and borrowed beliefs from other cultures. But the Baha'is say that one "manifestation" came and gave new knowledge and new social rules that replaced the old rules and knowledge from the previous manifestation. It seems more like each people and culture invented their Gods and religious beliefs... and, maybe, invented their "manifestations" too. And even if they were real, like say Jesus, the people made up myths and legends about them.

Anyway, the Baha'i Faith is an improvement over some of the beliefs and practices of some of the other religions. So, in a way, it's a progression. But can it be put into practice and really work? Is it working? Can it work on a large scale? Like I've asked before... If a whole city of let's say a million people were all Baha'i, how would they hold feast? How long would the business part of the feast take? So, if the Baha'i Faith is our only hope, then good luck Baha'is in making it work.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Religions that they claim are true and from the same God.

True religions do not come from any God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God will punish false prophets because it is a serious offense to pretend one is a prophet when they are NOT a prophet since it results in misleading millions of people.
Baha'u'llah broke away from Islam because He received a new Revelation from God.
Muhammad said that He was the Seal of the Prophets which clearly alludes to a lineage of Prophets from Adam to Muhammad.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad gave NO evidence of his being the Mahdi from Allah. Baha'ulah by contrast gave evidence that supported His claims.

Eternally or for a certain period of time? I shudder for Bahaollah's fate.
But a new revelation is impossible with Islam.
You can't sit on a fence. Declare Muhammad as fake or accept Bahaollah as fake.
What additional evidence Bahaollah gave that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not give (except claims)? Show us the contrast.

 

[Kfox]

I keep telling you that it is not about what God CAN do, it is about what God CHOOSES to do.

I wasn’t talking to you, I was talking to someone else and this someone else was very clear when he said God can’t do those things.

God does not do anything that God does not choose to do. Why would He? Nobody can make God do anything.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209​

He doth whatsoever He chooseth means He does not do anything He does not want to do, period.

You might wanna argue that point with the person I was responding to, he obviously disagrees with you concerning that issue; I was only responding in the context of what he believes, not what you believe.

God did address the entire world and cleared up all the misunderstandings people have of Him.
God did that through Baha'u'llah and it's all in His Writings.

I said in an audible voice from the clouds in today’s time.

 

[Trailblazer]

True religions do not come from any God.

Then where do you think they come from?
The Baha'i definition is below. Religion is is the Revelation vouchsafed unto mankind by God.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81​

 

[Trailblazer]

Eternally or for a certain period of time? I shudder for Bahaollah's fate.

God will punish false prophets but I don't know how or how long, whether it will be eternally or only for a certain period of time.

But a new revelation is impossible with Islam.
You can't sit on a fence. Declare Muhammad as fake or accept Bahaollah as fake.

A new revelation is impossible with Islam because Islam is wrong, in the same way that a new revelation is impossible with Christianity because Christianity is wrong.

There is no need to sit on any fence.
You can accept that both Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are Messengers of God and the Muslims mistranslated the Quran

What additional evidence Bahaollah gave that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not give (except claims)? Show us the contrast.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

I wasn’t talking to you, I was talking to someone else and this someone else was very clear when he said God can’t do those things.

You might wanna argue that point with the person I was responding to, he obviously disagrees with you concerning that issue; I was only responding in the context of what he believes, not what you believe.

I am not going to argue with him because he and I do not post to each other.

I said in an audible voice from the clouds in today’s time.

You can hope for whatever you want to but since it is not going to happen I don't understand the point.
The sheer volume of what was necessary for God to straighten out could never be spoken to everyone from the clouds.
That is why God sent a Messenger to write scriptures.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Then where do you think they come from?

Like the Eastern religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Daoism, Shintoism; they come from the society. Gods are added later.

 

[Aupmanyav]

A new revelation is impossible with Islam because Islam is wrong, in the same way that a new revelation is impossible with Christianity because Christianity is wrong.
There is no need to sit on any fence.
You can accept that both Muhammad and Baha'u'llah are Messengers of God and the Muslims mistranslated the Quran

'Islam is wrong', 'Christianity is wrong', means Jesus and Muhammad are fakes, then why do you have them as manifestations of Allah?
Why do you have Krishna and Buddha in the list?
Krishna claimed to be The Supreme God and Buddha did not eve accept the existence of any creator God.

People claim new revelations from God, which itself is a fictional entity, to establish their authority. Nothing new, Abrahamic religions have a long history of such deceit - it is especially common in Iran and other Shia countries. Wikipedia states that there were 1,200 people in jail at the time of Iranian revolution who claimed to be Mahdis (the returning Christ).

 

[CG Didymus]

You might wanna argue that point with the person I was responding to, he obviously disagrees with you concerning that issue; I was only responding in the context of what he believes, not what you believe."

I disagree with a lot of the Baha'i beliefs. But she can't argue the point with me, because for over a year now I've stopped responding directly to her. As you can probably see, it just goes round and round and gets nowhere. Sorry I got you in the middle of it.

But about this "He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth” gives their God a "do anything it wants, including stupid and unjust things" card and not get questioned about it. Not giving correct and consistent messages is pretty stupid and unjust. This Baha'i God finally figured out, "Gee, why don't I have my special messenger write the stuff I say down himself, instead of letting his followers write it down and getting things wrong."

 

[CG Didymus]

'Islam is wrong', 'Christianity is wrong', means Jesus and Muhammad are fakes, then why do you have them as manifestations of Allah?
Why do you have Krishna and Buddha in the list?
Krishna claimed to be The Supreme God and Buddha did not eve accept the existence of any creator God.

People claim new revelations from God, which itself is a fictional entity, to establish their authority. Nothing new, Abrahamic religions have a long history of doing that - it is especially common in Iran and other Shia countries. Wikipedia states that there were 1,200 people in jail at the time of Iranian revolution who claimed to be Mahdis (the returning Christ).

That's the thing about the Baha'i Faith... First they say that all religions came from the same God and are all true. Then they say all of them are now wrong and teaching and practicing wrong beliefs. Which makes the Baha'i Faith the only true religion left.

To admit that and believe that means that a person believes that the Baha'i Faith, through their Universal House of Justice, should be ruling the world. That it is "God's" true government and religion. And the Baha'i Faith and its laws and beliefs should replace the laws and beliefs of all the other religions. I'm not ready to believe or admit that.

 

[Kfox]

You can hope for whatever you want to but since it is not going to happen I don't understand the point.

I believe it was Henry Longfellow who said “a foolish man’s account of a wise man’s words are never accurate, because he must translate what he hears into something he can understand."
If we assume your God is real, I’m not saying his messenger is a fool, but you gotta admit; when compared to your God; he is rather foolish.

The sheer volume of what was necessary for God to straighten out could never be spoken to everyone from the clouds.

What’s preventing it?