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How do Baha’is see atheists?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
'Islam is wrong', 'Christianity is wrong', means Jesus and Muhammad are fakes, then why do you have them as manifestations of Allah?
No, it does not mean that Jesus and Muhammad are fakes. It means that the religions of Christianity and Islam have been corrupted by man over time.
Why do you have Krishna and Buddha in the list?
Krishna claimed to be The Supreme God and Buddha did not eve accept the existence of any creator God.
I did not add them to the list. It is an accepted Baha'i belief that they are Messengers of God so that is why they are on the list.
I do not agree with what Buddhists and Hindus believe about Buddha and Krishna since none of what they believe was written by Buddha or Krishna. What they believe is man's interpretatons of so-called scriptures that were written by men hundreds of years after Krishna and Buddha lived. And you expect that to be correct?
People claim new revelations from God, which itself is a fictional entity, to establish their authority. Nothing new, Abrahamic religions have a long history of such deceit - it is especially common in Iran and other Shia countries. Wikipedia states that there were 1,200 people in jail at the time of Iranian revolution who claimed to be Mahdis (the returning Christ).
The fact that there have been many claimants who were false prophets does not mean there were no actually no true prophets.
There have been many men who came claiming to be the return of Christ, but only Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the return of Christ. Even if there was no other reason to believe He was who He claimed to be, that would be enough to establish the truth of Hos claims.

History is history and geography is geography and they do not lie. That is all covered in this book:

William Sears, Thief in the Night
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But about this "He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth” gives their God a "do anything it wants, including stupid and unjust things" card and not get questioned about it. Not giving correct and consistent messages is pretty stupid and unjust.
Of course God can do anything He wants to do, He is God. That also means that God does not do what He does not want to do.

"He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth” is God 101 stuff.

Any God that did otherwise would not be God. If you want a God that does what you choose you might as well remain a nonbeliever since God doesn't operate that way, for obvious logical reasons.

It is only your personal opinion that the messages are incorrect and inconsistent. That does not mean they are actually incorrect and inconsistent.
It is only your personal opinion that God is stupid and unjust That does not mean that God is actually stupid and unjust.

We all have personal opinions.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That's the thing about the Baha'i Faith... First they say that all religions came from the same God and are all true. Then they say all of them are now wrong and teaching and practicing wrong beliefs. Which makes the Baha'i Faith the only true religion left.
All the religions did come from God and they were all true before they were mucked up and misinterpreted by the followers of those religions.
No, it does not make the Baha'i Faith the only true religion left, it only makes the Baha'i Faith the only religion that has not been corrupted like all the older religions.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”​
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe it was Henry Longfellow who said “a foolish man’s account of a wise man’s words are never accurate, because he must translate what he hears into something he can understand."
If we assume your God is real, I’m not saying his messenger is a fool, but you gotta admit; when compared to your God; he is rather foolish.
The messenger is a manifestation of God. How could he be foolish?
What’s preventing it?
God is preventing it. It doesn't happen because God does not choose to do it.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

"He doth whatsoever He chooseth" means that God only does what He chooses to do, which means that God does not do anything He does not choose to do.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
What’s preventing it?
If God was real, and he himself spoke from heaven or found a way to make his greatness appear, he could "straighten" out all the wrong stuff in one sentence... "Hey, look at me... How great I am. Now watch this..." He makes lightning flash across the sky. "What you're seeing is only a small part of my greatness. You'd all be blinded if I showed you any more of my brilliance. Let me straighten out what the truth is... All you've heard before is BS."

And Baha'i do believe God has done this... almost. The "brilliant" light he sent is the Baha'i prophet. They believe that's all we get. And their prophet has essentially said that all the previous beliefs that people hold are BS. What is true about God is, surprise, surprise, everything that the Baha'i prophet says about God.

They believe it, and although they claim they don't proselytize, they push their beliefs on others. And for all those that dare challenge their beliefs, they are the ones that are wrong, because the Baha'is can't be wrong, because they think they have the absolute truth from God.... makes it kind of hard to debate against that. The only problem for the Baha'i is to get others to "see" the light.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Like the Eastern religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Daoism, Shintoism; they come from the society. Gods are added later.
So many people had their own Gods, Goddesses, and God/men. The Greeks, the Egyptians, the Aztecs and so many others. What do the Baha'is say about them? They only pick a select few of the religions of the world to make their list of "true" "God-given" religions. On your list, only Hinduism and Buddhism make that list. But Baha'u'llah hardly, if ever, mentioned them. What do Baha'is believe about the others? Probably that they came out of society.

And strange that even the Baha'i Faith has so many things related to Persian society and Shia Islam.

Oh, and still, Baha'is only pick Krishna out of all the other incarnations of Vishnu. They seem to do the minimum in order to say, "See, we believe Hinduism is a true religion. They have Krishna, a manifestation of God, just like Baha'u'llah. And in fact, Baha'u'llah is Kalki, the promised return of Krishna."
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
The messenger is a manifestation of God. How could he be foolish?

God is preventing it. It doesn't happen because God does not choose to do it.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

"He doth whatsoever He chooseth" means that God only does what He chooses to do, which means that God does not do anything He does not choose to do.
How the heck did this thread that is asking Baha'is to answer a question about atheists get so many people here that are not Baha'is?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And Baha'i do believe God has done this... almost. The "brilliant" light he sent is the Baha'i prophet. They believe that's all we get.
That's true. We believe that is all we get until at least 2852 AD.
And their prophet has essentially said that all the previous beliefs that people hold are BS.
Baha'u'llah did not say all the beliefs other religious people hold are BS.
He said that the older religions have become corrupted by man, and I think most atheists would agree with that.
What is true about God is, surprise, surprise, everything that the Baha'i prophet says about God.
And what is in the Bible and the Qur'an about God is also true.
They believe it, and although they claim they don't proselytize, they push their beliefs on others.
Responding to posts is pushing? Baha'is do not push their beliefs on others.
And for all those that dare challenge their beliefs, they are the ones that are wrong, because the Baha'is can't be wrong, because they think they have the absolute truth from God.... makes it kind of hard to debate against that. The only problem for the Baha'i is to get others to "see" the light.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe that only their religions are true.
Baha'is do not believe we are the only religion that is true. We believe all those religions are true, but the older religions have been corrupted and misinterpreted by man.

Why do you single out the Baha'is and say we think we are right and everyone else is wrong. That is not what we believe.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That's the thing about the Baha'i Faith... First they say that all religions came from the same God and are all true. Then they say all of them are now wrong and teaching and practicing wrong beliefs.
A question for the Baha'is... What were the pure and true teachings of Christianity before they got "mucked up"? At best, f all we have is second-hand accounts of what Jesus said and did, then how know they are accurate and correct? And, since Baha'is don't take them as being literally true, then even Baha'is don't take them as being true and accurate... but are already needing to make adjustments to the things said in the NT by saying that some things were meant to be symbolic.

Which becomes everything that the Baha'is don't believe are true and that don't fit into Baha'i beliefs. Gone is Satan, demons, a literal hell, the resurrection, and some of the healings/miracles. And again, lots of us don't believe those things, but, unlike the Baha'i Faith, we don't go around saying we believe that Christianity is a true, God-given religion.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And strange that even the Baha'i Faith has so many things related to Persian society and Shia Islam.
Why would that be strange? After all, Bahaollah was born and raised as a Shia Muslim in Iran. What did he know about other people or other religions (except the Abrahamic ones)? He was uneducated.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
And what is in the Bible and the Qur'an about God is also true.
Baha'is believe that much of the Bible and the Qur'an should be taken metaphorically, even if they agree with much of what they say about God. In this way Baha'is are as much Christian as many liberal denominations of Christianity are, who blatantly disregard many scriptures that say things like 1 - Jesus is the only way to Heaven 2 - Women cannot be pastors 3 - Homosexuality should be viewed as sinful. Among other changes. The difference between liberal Christianity and the Baha'i Faith is that the Baha'is added their own scriptures to work together with the other scriptures. If you don't know community Baha'is have created a program called Ocean that explores various scriptures deemed notable enough to be part of the canon, even if they aren't specifically from the Baha'i Faith.

Baha'u'llah had the privilege, and yes, I say privilege, to live in the 19th century, where people were starting to understand themselves and the world around them so much more than they used to. If you ask Baha'is what is the meaning of life, many Baha'is would probably say to foster the unity of humanity. I believe this is the current goal of humanity, but the ultimate goal that we've been working on since we became self aware is to raise and cultivate as much life under our dominion as possible. Extrapolating this, I could say that in the future it will be the job of these humans to create as much unique life in the Universe as possible, as well as maintaining the sovereignty and the sovereign unity of our species.

@CG Didymus , as far as "why doesn't God show himself" arguments, if He did that, most monotheistic Abrahamics would probably agree that if that happened it would prevent humans from having their free will. If God forced people to believe in Him, in one way or the other, it would ruin any real amount of free will humans have. God gave us free will, therefore, God Himself doesn't have the free will to remove the free will of humans. It would mean a lot more to God, I would think, if someone believed because they wanted to, rather than being forced or coherence to do so. The argument could then be made that, well, if God showed himself to Baha'u'llah, then he removed His free will by doing so.

Baha'u'llah always had the ability to ignore that conviction of God that was part of his own being. He didn't have to start a world religion and he could have continued his life without being a prophet. God didn't remove his free will by showing Himself to him because the way he showed Himself to him was done in such a subjective matter, just like how many people know and understand God. That's mainly how God expresses himself, in subjective ways rather than being able to definitively measure these types of things. Baha'u'llah didn't ignore these subjective ways God showed Himself to him, and thus, a new religion rose out of the Twelver Shi'a Islam prophecy.

Do I believe in Baha'u'llah? Well, I believe that every human in some way is a manifestation of God. I believe in continuing progressive revelation to this day, and I believe there are objective morals that many of us are blind to see, just like the Baha'is. However, there are many things I disagree with about this religion too. Although not part of covenant-breaking, it is taboo in the religion to join a political party, which means chances are there will never be a President or Prime Minister in any democratic republic that believes in the Baha'i Faith. I also don't agree with fasting or obligatory prayers. Prayers mean more when they are sent in the time of need, not forced to by the convictions of someone else. Prayer should also be customized and tailored to each individual, not a forced set of things someone must recite on a daily basis. Overall I am more focused on beliefs than I am on ritual, but the Baha'i Faith stresses various rituals, even though only a tenth of Baha'is actually seek community within their religion.

Despite my differences from this religion I realize and understand the importance of their mission. Considered apostates from Islam they are probably bringing less unity to God as a whole by inventing a new way to practice their monotheistic faith, I do not believe that unity simply means everybody believes in the same religion. Contrary to that, I actually think unity is the respect and inclusion of diverse beliefs. This is why while I don't believe there will be a "one-nation world government" anytime soon, sovereign unity can happen with the 200+ sovereign nations that exist and are part of the UN. Unity is simply another word to describe the ideal that Jesus brought to us, by loving thy neighbor. Loving thy neighbor, even though he may be and think differently from you, is another way to express the idea of unity, and because of this, even though both religions came from different times, they ultimately have the same source for their belief - God. And that's the Unity of God and religion the Baha'i Faith has stressed about this entire time.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. and I think most atheists would agree with that.
Baha'is do not push their beliefs on others.
.. but the older religions have been corrupted and misinterpreted by man.
Why do you single out the Baha'is and say we think we are right and everyone else is wrong. That is not what we believe.
No, atheists do not believe that. Atheists do not believe in existence of God, and therefore generally reject all paraphernalia associated with God such as prophets, sons, messengers, manifestations, mahdis, soul, heaven, hell, end of days, judgment, deliverance and resurrection.
They try to, with Bahaollah quotes in signatures and posts.
.. and your's alone is the true one.
Read your own line again ".. but the older religions have been corrupted and misinterpreted by man."
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Not giving correct and consistent messages is pretty stupid and unjust.
I think that is supported by Baha'i beliefs. Unless Baha'is have changed their minds and beliefs that the Scriptures of all the older religions are true and accurate and can to taken literally. You Baha'is say that the messages were written years later by the followers of the person believed to be a prophet, incarnation or whatever. It is not just my opinion that I got out of thin air. You Baha'is helped me come to that conclusion that messages are not correct and consistent.

Of course, you Baha'is try to make them consistent with your beliefs by saying things like a belief in reincarnation in Hindu Scriptures doesn't mean what Hindus think it means, and that the resurrection of Jesus doesn't mean what some Christians believe it to mean. But why try to "fix" Scriptures that you Baha'is believe were written by people and not the supposed messenger?

Oh, and the supposed prophecies are part of Scriptures that were written by the followers, not the manifestation/messenger himself. How accurate are they? Yet, Baha'is make the claim their prophet fulfilled all prophecies in all the Scriptures of all the major religions? Scriptures that they believe have authenticity issues? Which then gives your religion, the Baha'i Faith, authenticity issues.
 
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