How Do Christians Reconcile The Following Question Regarding Their Faith?

[Guy Threepwood]

God's not powerful and creative enough to find a way to have love and kindness without choices and alternatives? Hmm. Sounds pretty weak.

He is, it's called heaven.

 

[Thana]

I fully acknowledge that research, evidence, and facts can only take a person so far.
What I don't acknowledge is any sort of need to take anything on faith. Ever.

Then what are you left with, when you reach the end?

I don't mind scripture being quoted (90% of the time it can be used against the person quoting).
The quote more or less reinforces my stance against faith.

Nihilism can seem to trump everything.

 

[Katzpur]

You're the second person in this thread who doubts my claim as to being a Christian. I can't tell you how rude I find those statements and won't respond to that type of arrogance.

LOL! That's because you weren't one of Jehovah's Witnesses. They're the only "Christians" around. You were just part of "Christendom" like all the rest of us. I guess you didn't pick up on that.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Then what are you left with, when you reach the end?

Self gratification via self control.
If I make it to the end of my life without harming or killing another person, that's enough for me.

Nihilism can seem to trump everything.

In the physical sense I could be seen as nihilistic.
But if we're talking the meaning of life then I'm just an apistevist.
My life holds a personal meaning to me.

 

[Deeje]

God does know the difference between weakness and wickedness....between evil intent and mental illness....the trouble is we humans sometimes don't.

Its too easy to judge from our very limited perspective, so we must leave that to God.

 

[Deathbydefault]

God does know the difference between weakness and wickedness....between evil intent and mental illness....the trouble is we humans sometimes don't.

Its too easy to judge from our very limited perspective, so we must leave that to God.

God knows the difference between evil and mental illness? Well I sure hope so.
Does it judge the two separately? Can I just give in and have nothing to worry about?

 

[Buttercup]

I'm a little bit confused here. A few posts back, I asked you if you would like God to intervene before an evil act is committed and you indicated that you didn't particularly want that. You just wanted us to be created without the potential to do evil in the first place. So, I guess I'd have to say that I think it's necessary that we be allowed free will, even when the gift is abused.

I was asking again why the murder card is necessary to put on the table in our game of life. Why is it an option in regard to our design? I think we've discussed this point enough to draw confident conclusions about each others' opinions.

I don't know that this particular act (i.e. murder) is applicable towards anyone's growth, but when I have asked you to draw a line at what wrongs our free will should allow and where the line should be drawn, you haven't given me an answer. I mean, it seems like you're fine condemning the idea of free will, but I still don't know what alternative you would suggest.

Ha! I've answered you with nearly the same response every time. God, (if "it" exists) shouldn't have put that option into the human design from the beginning. I've given several examples to point out that life is tough enough, we didn't need the act of murder added in. There is enough suffering and pain BESIDES murder to make that act seem over the top as far as adding to the wretched part of human existence. Nothing can be changed now so I don't know how else to respond. Explaining free will just isn't good enough for me. Actually, no other scenario is good enough except for what I've already proposed regarding the specific act of murder. Humans dying is part of the grand plan of God. Contracting cancer is part of the grand plan of God as are all the floods, earthquakes and tornadoes. I can handle God exposing us to those events because I think they DO help us to appreciate the good. I don't really want to give you a laundry list of what I'd allow and not allow because I think you get the point.

Me, too, probably. I think we've both said pretty much all we have to say on the subject. I'll post the lesson I gave in the LDS DIR. If you'd like to read it, great, but please don't feel obligated. I was already thinking about posting it for someone else anyway. Keep in mind that it was a half-hour lesson. It will take probably three posts to accommodate its size. I ask some questions throughout the lesson and class discussion takes place at that point. You'll kind of just have to take that into account if it seems at all disjointed. The thread will be called, "Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet."

Ok, sounds good.

Seriously? That's really surprising. I can't imagine what you get out of doing so, but I'm actually glad you do.

I'm a hopeful agnostic and it makes me feel good.

Well, I can't think of anybody I'd rather discuss a controversial subject with than you!

 

[prometheus11]

It is not about a lack of power, rather God can only act in accordance with His character and reality. He is the one Creator God, therefore He cannot create other beings who innately possess perfection as He alone has or ever will have. To have created beings who could sin would certainly be to create robots with no real ability to freely love, which would be contrary to His character, since God is love. You charge God being a robot is illogical since it should be obvious that a Being such as God ho is capable of creating the entire universe and all life certainly has the ultimate wisdom to know the best way to create anything, including humans.

Are you saying God has the choice to create the world differently (say one that didn't allow infant molestation or infant cancer), or that he had to make it just like he did?

Either God could have made a "nicer" world or he couldn't.

Does God have free will to make worlds without mass murderers or is he a robot?

 

[Thana]

Self gratification via self control.
If I make it to the end of my life without harming or killing another person, that's enough for me.

In the physical sense I could be seen as nihilistic.
But if we're talking the meaning of life then I'm just an apistevist.
My life holds a personal meaning to me.

Well far be it from me to persuade you otherwise if you're genuinely satisfied with that perspective.

 

[Forgemaster]

Well, how do you know that it wasn't your perception or lack thereof that just missed realizing God was/is there?

Christians... I swear I can always tell what they are gonna say. Why? Because they all say the same thing! First I'm wrong for trying to find God then my open mind is wrong because I could have missed him somehow!

 

[Deathbydefault]

Well far be it from me to persuade you otherwise if you're genuinely satisfied with that perspective.

I'm curious as to why faith is such an appealing position.
To me it's just making an assumption/assertion with absolutely no showable supporting evidence.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Are you saying God has the choice to create the world differently (say one that didn't allow infant molestation or infant cancer), or that he had to make it just like he did?

Either God could have made a "nicer" world or he couldn't.

Does God have free will to make worlds without mass murderers or is he a robot?

or.. is he able to create free will and choses to do so

 

[Thana]

I'm curious as to why faith is such an appealing position.
To me it's just making an assumption/assertion with absolutely no showable supporting evidence.

I think having faith is appealing because the alternative is less so.
Call it weak if you like, But I'd rather not live in a Godless world.

 

[Deathbydefault]

I think having faith is appealing because the alternative is less so.
Call it weak if you like, But I'd rather not live in a Godless world.

If that's the case then why the god you've chosen?
I don't really consider faith a weak position, just an illogical one.
However, I do think a masochist of those willing to hold faith in a god we humans can define as malevolent.
Sadistic if you support such actions. (not saying you do)

 

[prometheus11]

or.. is he able to create free will and choses to do so

What?

I'm asking questions based on a post to me.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

What?

I'm asking questions based on a post to me.

you missed an option

 

[Katzpur]

I was asking again why the murder card is necessary to put on the table in our game of life. Why is it an option in regard to our design? I think we've discussed this point enough to draw confident conclusions about each others' opinions.

Ha! I've answered you with nearly the same response every time. God, (if "it" exists) shouldn't have put that option into the human design from the beginning. I've given several examples to point out that life is tough enough, we didn't need the act of murder added in. There is enough suffering and pain BESIDES murder to make that act seem over the top as far as adding to the wretched part of human existence. Nothing can be changed now so I don't know how else to respond. Explaining free will just isn't good enough for me. Actually, no other scenario is good enough except for what I've already proposed regarding the specific act of murder. Humans dying is part of the grand plan of God. Contracting cancer is part of the grand plan of God as are all the floods, earthquakes and tornadoes. I can handle God exposing us to those events because I think they DO help us to appreciate the good. I don't really want to give you a laundry list of what I'd allow and not allow because I think you get the point.
Ok, sounds good.

Okay, you're going to think I'm nuts. I'm not; I'm apparently just slow. I honestly thought you were using murder as an extreme example, but that you were really suggesting that we not have to experience any "evil" at all. I don't know at what point I got confused, but since you also mentioned rape, that's really what I thought you were saying. So, now that I do understand that you were specifically referring to murder, my only other comment would be to point out that an awful lot of people would make cancer and floods and earthquakes and tornados off-limits, too, along with sexual abuse of any kind, or child abuse of any kind, etc. A lot of people believe life should just be pleasant. Period. Poor God would have a hard time satisfying everybody, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Thana]

If that's the case then why the god you've chosen?
I don't really consider faith a weak position, just an illogical one.
However, I do think a masochist of those willing to hold faith in a god we humans can define as malevolent.
Sadistic if you support such actions. (not saying you do)

Because no other God is real to me. Allah is harsh, Yahweh is strict and Jehovah is desperate.
But God, my God, the God that could be any one of those, all of them or none of them. He is, and even though I don't know Him very well I will still spend my life trying too.

And I think most of the time humans can see whatever they want to see in whatever they want to see it in.

 

[Buttercup]

But I'd rather not live in a Godless world.

Ten years ago I couldn't have IMAGINED living without God. I'm currently agnostic and happier and feel more at peace than I've ever felt. It took awhile to let go of being afraid of being thrown into Hell for letting go of Christ, but once that fear was gone, it's been glorious. Every person needs to find their own way, one that makes the most sense to them. I still feel a "spirit" of something inside me but I'm not sure what "it" is. I like it though.

 

[prometheus11]

you missed an option

No, God giving free will has nothing to do with my questions. My questions work regardless of God giving free will or not.

Don't presume.