How do Christians view Judaism?

[Terry Sampson]

Do you think Jesus converted?

You're missing Harel's point. He's saying that his experience has been that some "Christians" believe that Christianity replaces the world's "need" for Judaism and Harel wants to know if he's just met the rotten apples in the barrel or if there's another barrel of good, ripe apples that someone can tell him exists.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Christianity split off from Judaism.

I won't swear to it but I think you managed to pack a hundred years, at the least, into five words.

 

[coconut theology]

Not sure if this is in the right section... ...
Is this really how Christians view Judaism? ...

*Deleted by moderator*

See:

Act_24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Act_28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
​

Paul was Christian, yes? This ought to directly answer the question.

The Jews of yesterday (Jesus day) are not the same as those which claim that designation today, which are nothing but Ashkenazic or Sephardic descent of pagan nations, which mainly (some exception, the torah Jews, which still cannot follow all of the torah, being absent of a Temple, High Priest, Ark of the Covenant, etc, and even if they had it, all of it would be of no avail, seeing as Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all of it) live their lives by Rabbinism, Talmudism and Kabbalism (all of which is nothing of what Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel of old), Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, or even Jesus knew (except the seeds of such were seen in Jesus day, of the false traditions that already crowded out JEHOVAH Elohiym).

Should hatred be shown these people? Of course not. Yet, their (current 'Jews') religion is vain. This is not to say that some do not conscienciously worship God according to the light that they have, not understanding their fulfillment in Christ Jesus, and these God accepts, knowing that if they had the greater light they would follow Jesus.

Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).

Mat 2:13-15,19-21; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21​

'Israel' after the flesh, as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire. Individuals still have opportunity to repent and believe.

Yet, God's prophecies were fulfilled:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Heb_10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
​

Because they, as a nation, rejected Jesus personally, and through His messenger (Stephen), they cut themselves off, and destroyed their own city.

Hos_13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.​

Mat_27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.​

 

[pearl]

• Judaism and Islam share the same God-concept but not the same God.

• Judaism and Christianity share the same God but not the same God-concept.

• Christianity and Islam share neither the same God nor the same God-concept.

I do not agree with #1or 3 as there is only one God and it is the God of Israel.
Arab Christians also referred to God by Allah.

Its unfortunate that we so readily to point to the differences while ignoring the truths we share.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Christianity is real Judaism

@Harel13 Here you go:
coconut theology has just dumped some good ol' "replacement theology" on the table for us to look at.
Somebody, call a janitor.

 

[Harel13]

all of which is nothing of what Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel of old), Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, or even Jesus knew

I wonder how you know this? After all, the Bible doesn't describe what these people did for every second of their lives, just certain key events.

 

[Harel13]

@Harel13 Here you go:
coconut theology has just dumped some good ol' "replacement theology" on the table for us to look at.
Somebody, call a janitor.

No need. Everyone is free to voice their opinion.

 

[lukethethird]

Which means?

Christianity without Christ.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I do not agree with #1or 3 as there is only one God and it is the God of Israel.
Arab Christians also referred to God by Allah.

Why am I not surprised that you do not agree with all of the claims?
FYI. Although it was a Rabbi who gave me Claims #1 and 2, I agree wholeheartedly with them
I came up with Claim #3 based on my own interactions with Muslims in RF.

Its unfortunate that we so readily to point to the differences while ignoring the truths we share.

What's unfortunate is that some folks are quite ready and willing to toss the essentials in order to build a Tower of Babel.
Psalm 127:1.

• Unless the Lord build the house,
  they labor in vain who build.
  Unless the Lord guard the city,
  in vain does the guard keep watch.

 

[Harel13]

Christianity without Christ.

So, yes to my OP assumption. Okay. Do you agree with this notion, if I may ask?

 

[coconut theology]

@Harel13 Here you go:
coconut theology has just dumped some good ol' "replacement theology" on the table for us to look at.
Somebody, call a janitor.

Straw man.

I said "continuation".

 

[Terry Sampson]

No need. Everyone is free to voice their opinion.

Coconut's theology is (a) Seventh Day Adventist, restorationist, American-born, "Jesus-is-coming tomorrow", christian denomination that originated in the U.S. in the mid-1800s, and which declares pretty-much all other denominations error-ridden. It should come as no surprise then that coconut claims: "Christianity is real Judaism", which is replacement theology at is finest.

 

[coconut theology]

Coconut's theology is (a) Seventh Day Adventist, ... "Jesus-is-coming tomorrow" ...

Actually it is Jesus is coming really soon. It cannot happen tomorrow, as events need to take place first, which are even now, going forward.

 

[pearl]

But the church isn't a Jewish concept. At some point, Christianity split off from Judaism.

Yes of course, it did but that does not mean that Christianity's Jewish roots ought to be severed and our faith heritage forgotten. There is no 'Christian' God

 

[Harel13]

Yes of course, it did but that does not mean that Christianity's Jewish roots ought to be severed and our faith heritage forgotten. There is no 'Christian' God

So what's the role of Judaism in this world?

 

[Terry Sampson]

Straw man. I said "continuation".

Nonsense.

• You didn't JUST say "continuation". You said:

  Christianity is real Judaism (Acts 24:5, 28:22), as it is the continuation of God's plan from Genesis.

• You didn't JUST say "continuation". You said:
  

  The Jews of yesterday (Jesus day) are not the same as those which claim that designation today, which are nothing but Ashkenazic or Sephardic descent of pagan nations, which mainly (some exception, the torah Jews, which still cannot follow all of the torah, being absent of a Temple, High Priest, Ark of the Covenant, etc, and even if they had it, all of it would be of no avail, seeing as Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all of it) live their lives by Rabbinism, Talmudism and Kabbalism (all of which is nothing of what Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel of old), Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, or even Jesus knew (except the seeds of such were seen in Jesus day, of the false traditions that already crowded out JEHOVAH Elohiym).

  • Which, BTW, has to be one of the longest run-on sentences that I've read in a long time.
• You didn't JUST say "continuation". You said:
  

  Israel' after the flesh, as a 'nation', is left desolate, to bear no more fruit ever again, cursed, withered away, dried up from the roots, "twice dead", and the axe already laid at their root, cut down and to be thrown into the fire. Individuals still have opportunity to repent and believe.

• Blah, blah, blah.
• That's "replacement theology", and I ain't buying it. Sell your wares elsewhere.

 

[1213]

Not sure if this is in the right section...
Anyway, through various discussions and, at times, heated debates online with Christians on different sites these last couple of years, I've come under the impression that at least some Christians view Judaism as "Christianity minus Jesus". Certainly, I'm pretty sure this is a mindset that groups like the Hebrew Christians and Messianic Judaism have used to preach to and convert Jews.

Is this really how Christians view Judaism?

Note: This isn't about what role Christians think Jews serve in the world, but about the religion itself.

I think in Biblical point of view Christians are Jews, because:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don't boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in." True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don't be conceited, but fear; for if God didn't spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. They also, if they don't continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:17-23

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

If Judaism is what the Old Testament teaches, there is no meaningful difference to Christianity. If also Christianity would mean to follow the teachings of Jesus. So, I think Judaism is ok. But, if you mix hypocrisy to Judaism, or to Christianity, that is not good and causes problems.

 

[Harel13]

if you mix hypocrisy

What sort of hypocrisy?

 

[pearl]

So what's the role of Judaism in this world?

I guess we wait together, you for the coming of the Messiah, and me for the Messiah to return. All known only to God.

 

[coconut theology]

I think in Biblical point of view Christians are Jews, because:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don't boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in." True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don't be conceited, but fear; for if God didn't spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. They also, if they don't continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:17-23

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

If Judaism is what the Old Testament teaches, there is no meaningful difference to Christianity. If also Christianity would mean to follow the teachings of Jesus. So, I think Judaism is ok. But, if you mix hypocrisy to Judaism, or to Christianity, that is not good and causes problems.

The Tree is Jesus.

Son_2:3 As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste.

Luk_23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Mat_7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat_7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk_6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​