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How do we know the Bible was not written by demons?

Muffled

Jesus in me
I do not believe in Baha’u’llah, so I see no reason they should.

By the way I’m not a Baha’i, I’m a liberal. To be “Baha’i inspired” just means to me that I like some of the general principles of the Baha’i Faith, not that I believe the claims of its founder.

Thanks for contributing your post :)

Maybe someone could even find something worthwhile in the
Necronomicon - Wikipedia.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Mara in buddhism is not the same as in devil in chritianity.
What Buddha was "fighting" was his inner demons of attachments to the human world. The attachments to greed, anger, delusion. And so on. He won over his own attachments and the temptation (mara) was no longer within him. It should be noted that this happens before his full enlightenment so he was an arahant at the moment.
This is how i understood the suttas when i was a buddhist.

I believe that did not come through very well in the biography that I read. Are you saying he stated that or is it just interpretation after the fact?
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
I believe what we have discussed happened 2,000 years ago more or less
Recorded in a span of 1,500 years, in a set of books we call the Bible.
Which was banned from being known to the common man during the Dark Ages.
But by being the word of God as it is, was not defeated
The prophecy that the Bible [OT & NT] will be subject to an intense ban is written in Revelation 11:3-12

View attachment 40120

Censorship of the Bible includes restrictions and prohibition of possessing, reading, or using the Bible in general or any particular translation of it. Violators of so-called "Bible bans" have been punished by killing, imprisonment, forced labor, and banishment, as well as by burning or confiscating the Bible or Bibles used or distributed. Censorship of the Bible occurred in historical times and is still going on today.

The Index Librorum Prohibitorum[a] of the Catholic Church included various translations of the Bible. In most cases, the bans on pious lay people possessing or using Bibles were related to vernacular Bible editions. Clerics were never forbidden to possess the Vulgate Bible translation in the Latin language.

From the point of view of Protestantism, the topic mostly refers to historical provisions of the Catholic Church against reading or possessing Bibles not of the Latin Vulgate translation, or in the case of the laity, possessing any Bibles at all, including the Vulgate. From a Catholic point of view, one rarely speaks of Bible bans, because in their view the attempts by the hierarchy to prevent opposing biblical interpretations were justified. From a Catholic point of view, the censorship of the Bible was justified both by restricting Bibles from those lacking instruction and by censoring translations thought to encourage deviations from official doctrines.[1]

Censorship of the Bible - Wikipedia

Unique in Doctrine

The doctrines of the Bible are not influenced by the superstitions of the pagans that dominated every culture and city during the time of its writing. Its doctrines are unique.


Unique in Accuracy

Accuracy of the Bible cannot be taken for granted. Before the discoveries in archeology and science, the Bible was criticized as historical and even scientifically inaccurate. However, in view of modern discoveries, the Bible is no longer view of as inaccurate, but many are convinced of the accuracy of the Bible in terms of geography, topography, history and even in science.


Unique in its influence on Literature

View attachment 40121
“The Bible has permeated the literature of the Western world to a degree that cannot easily be measured. More than any other single body of writing, ancient or modern, it has provided writers from the Middle Ages on with a store of symbols, ideas, and ways of perceiving reality. This influence can be traced not only in texts that deal directly with biblical characters or topics, but also in a vast number of poems, plays, and other writings that are not overtly biblical in theme but that testify to a biblical view of humankind and the world.”


Unique in its influence on civilization

View attachment 40122
“The Bible is one of the most important documents in the history of civilization, not only because of its status as holy inspired Scripture, but also because of its pervasive influence on Western thought. As the predominant world view for at least fourteen centuries, Christianity and its great central text played a major role in the formation of Western culture.”


Unique in Its Survival through Criticism

From the beginning, the Bible had always gone through severe criticism, but as time passed and discoveries were made, the Bible still stands as the “Sacred Scripture,” while criticisms come and go.


Unique in form

View attachment 40123
The Bible tells the truth, focusing on reality, not fantasy or myth. Unlike ancient documents or records, “The Bible deals very frankly with the sins of its characters, even when those sins reflect badly on God’s chosen people, leaders, and the biblical writers themselves.”


The Bible is Inspired by God

But, above all these, what makes the Bible unique from any other religious books? The Bible is inspired by God:

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (II Tim. 3:16-17, NKJV)

This is what makes the Bible far beyond and above all other books written by men.

Yes, I also see the Bible as an awesome book, and that it has had a major impact in history. The KJV itself is also seen as a masterpiece of English literature. This does not address the points of eye witness accounts being facts though...

Unique in Doctrine
The doctrines of the Bible are not influenced by the superstitions of the pagans that dominated every culture and city during the time of its writing. Its doctrines are unique.
Not necessarily. There are many different followers of the bible who have different doctrines based on the book, so which specific interpretations and doctrines are you referring to?

Also the New Testament does have similarities to other religions such as Zoroastrianism in terms of doctrine. Some scholars even believe that the Magi who met Jesus in his early life were Zoroastrians.

Zoroastrianism and the Resemblances between It and Christianity on JSTOR

Comparisons Between Zoroastrianism And Christianity

10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse

Atenism seems to have a view of God similar to early Judaism and existed before it.

The Bible tells the truth, focusing on reality, not fantasy or myth.
This is assumed, as one has to prove that YHWH, angels, Satan, various Bible characters, events of Genesis and other various events are true. It is at best historical fiction based off the evidence we have at the moment.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Also the New Testament does have similarities to other religions such as Zoroastrianism in terms of doctrine. Some scholars even believe that the Magi who met Jesus in his early life were Zoroastrians.

Zoroastrianism and the Resemblances between It and Christianity on JSTOR

Comparisons Between Zoroastrianism And Christianity

10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse

I am not surprised this would crop up sooner or later.
A few years ago there was a thread comparing Jesus with other characters in other religions

BHgUOqGCUAEyAst.png


But examining each character and the alleged Jesus Christ - I have seen so many errors and wrong assumptions.

One of the glaring error is the Bible does not mention on what month Jesus Christ was born. It wasn't December 25th.

giphy.gif


If you can prove that the Bible records that the Lord Jesus Christ was born on December 25th, then I would acknowledge you are right and I am totally wrong.

If not then there is no point of comparison but it just a matter of misinformation on a very twisted level.
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
I am not surprised this would crop up sooner or later.
A few years ago there was a thread comparing Jesus with other characters in other religions

BHgUOqGCUAEyAst.png


But examining each character and the alleged Jesus Christ - I have seen so many errors and wrong assumptions.

One of the glaring error is the Bible does not mention on what month Jesus Christ was born. It wasn't December 25th.

giphy.gif


If you can prove that the Bible records that the Lord Jesus Christ was born on December 25th, then I would acknowledge you are right and I am totally wrong.

If not then there is no point of comparison but it just a matter of misinformation on a very twisted level.

Did any of the links I sent you say that Jesus was born on December 25th?
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Did any of the links I sent you say that Jesus was born on December 25th?

No.
However, I am already raising this one, because I got those covered.


However, one of your links is listverse.

And it mentions this:

10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse

trinity-e1372542797206.jpg


While the New Testament definitely mentions the concepts of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew28:19), it makes no actual mention of the word “trinity,” and there is still some contention as to whether the trinity god-head is a biblical theme. Judaism teaches pure monotheism, while Catholicism favors the trinity concept.

Yet it is clearly a concept that was influenced by pagan religions existing at the time that Christianity came about. Examples of pagan trinities are: Amun, Re, and Ptah of Egyptian Mythology; Anu, Enlil, and Ea of Sumerian Mythology; and Ishtar, Baal, and Tammuz of Babylonian Mythology.

tenor.gif


The Bible does not teach the dogma of the Trinity
The Trinity doctrine is purely Catholic and not in the scriptures.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Also the New Testament does have similarities to other religions such as Zoroastrianism in terms of doctrine. Some scholars even believe that the Magi who met Jesus in his early life were Zoroastrians.

10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse

Atenism seems to have a view of God similar to early Judaism and existed before it.

Gilgamesh is the semi-mythic King of Uruk in Mesopotamia best known from The Epic of Gilgamesh (written c. 2150 - 1400 BCE) the great Sumerian/Babylonian poetic work which pre-dates Homer's writing by 1500 years and, therefore, stands as the oldest piece of epic world literature.Mar 29, 2018
https://www.ancient.eu/gilgamesh/
Gilgamesh - Ancient History Encyclopedia

In the Persian scriptures of the Zoroastrians, the Avesta tells the story of how Ormuzd created the world and the first two humans in six days and then rested on the seventh. The names of these two human beings were Adama and Evah. These texts date back as far as the 10th century B.C.

There is also a lot of evidence that the Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the oldest recorded texts in human history, had an influence on the biblical creation story. The Epic of Gilgamesh tells the story of a man, Enkidu, who was created from the earth by a god. He lives amongst the animals in a natural paradise until he is tempted by a woman, Shamhat. He accepts food from this woman and is forced to leave the place where he lives after becoming aware of his own nakedness. Later in the epic, he encounters a snake which steals a plant of immortality from him. Obviously, there are a lot of parallels between this story and the Graden of Eden from the Bible.

My comment: Moses was the scribe of God and was responsible for the Book of Genesis which covers the Garden of Eden, the Great Flood. If the Persians have their version, that is their version. I believe Moses did not have a lap top or a desk top around and the internet wasn't invented.

h0E97E229


But I am sure the Persian story and Moses' version are totally different from each other.

 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
No.
However, I am already raising this one, because I got those covered.


However, one of your links is listverse.

And it mentions this:

10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse

trinity-e1372542797206.jpg


While the New Testament definitely mentions the concepts of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew28:19), it makes no actual mention of the word “trinity,” and there is still some contention as to whether the trinity god-head is a biblical theme. Judaism teaches pure monotheism, while Catholicism favors the trinity concept.

Yet it is clearly a concept that was influenced by pagan religions existing at the time that Christianity came about. Examples of pagan trinities are: Amun, Re, and Ptah of Egyptian Mythology; Anu, Enlil, and Ea of Sumerian Mythology; and Ishtar, Baal, and Tammuz of Babylonian Mythology.

tenor.gif


The Bible does not teach the dogma of the Trinity
The Trinity doctrine is purely Catholic and not in the scriptures.

OK. Cool. Because i am aware that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th according to the Bible.

I would agree with your above point, not just because the exact relationship between God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit can be cloudy, but the Trinity concept itself is just a result of a group trying to figure the whole thing out. The actual Trinity concept does seem to me to be linked to pagan understanding of what a god is, but not the trinities that they mention above, if they are even trinities to begin with. The Trinity was a concept gradually developed over a period of centuries even before the Catholic Church came to be as the term was coined by Tertullian. There are also two official Trinities, the western and the Eastern Orthodox version which disagree on the relationship between the three, the latter not being spoken of much and the usual criticisms of the former do not apply to it.

The Trinity reflects more the Egyptian concept of the Pharoah being human and his Ka being a deity spirit thus fully man and fully a god(Jesus), Ra being the equivalent of YHWH in the godhead and the Holy Spirit being the fluid nature of Ra which can join with other beings. Alternatively humans were said to have three aspects to their spirits in Egyptian myth, which is similar to God in the Trinity.

The fluid nature of Egyptian gods certainly seems to me to be similar to the activity of the Holy Spirit in the bible depending on what the interpretation of what the Holy Spirit is, but I have no idea whether that influenced the biblical concept.
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
Gilgamesh is the semi-mythic King of Uruk in Mesopotamia best known from The Epic of Gilgamesh (written c. 2150 - 1400 BCE) the great Sumerian/Babylonian poetic work which pre-dates Homer's writing by 1500 years and, therefore, stands as the oldest piece of epic world literature.Mar 29, 2018
Gilgamesh - Ancient History Encyclopedia

In the Persian scriptures of the Zoroastrians, the Avesta tells the story of how Ormuzd created the world and the first two humans in six days and then rested on the seventh. The names of these two human beings were Adama and Evah. These texts date back as far as the 10th century B.C.

There is also a lot of evidence that the Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the oldest recorded texts in human history, had an influence on the biblical creation story. The Epic of Gilgamesh tells the story of a man, Enkidu, who was created from the earth by a god. He lives amongst the animals in a natural paradise until he is tempted by a woman, Shamhat. He accepts food from this woman and is forced to leave the place where he lives after becoming aware of his own nakedness. Later in the epic, he encounters a snake which steals a plant of immortality from him. Obviously, there are a lot of parallels between this story and the Graden of Eden from the Bible.

My comment: Moses was the scribe of God and was responsible for the Book of Genesis which covers the Garden of Eden, the Great Flood. If the Persians have their version, that is their version. I believe Moses did not have a lap top or a desk top around and the internet wasn't invented.

h0E97E229


But I am sure the Persian story and Moses' version are totally different from each other.

The flood story is a common story around the world and they are similar. The writer of Genesis might have been influenced be the Epic of Gilgamesh, might have not.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
The fluid nature of Egyptian gods certainly seems to me to be similar to the activity of the Holy Spirit in the bible depending on what the interpretation of what the Holy Spirit is, but I have no idea whether that influenced the biblical concept.

The flood story is a common story around the world and they are similar. The writer of Genesis might have been influenced be the Epic of Gilgamesh, might have not.

The inventor of the dogma of the Trinity is from Tertullian

220px-Tertullian.jpg


Tertullian (/tərˈtʌliən/; Latin: Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus; c. 155 – c. 240? AD)[1] was a prolific early Christian author from Carthage in the Roman province of Africa.[2] Of Berber origin,[3][4][5][6][7] he was the first Christian author to produce an extensive corpus of Latin Christian literature. He was an early Christian apologist and a polemicist against heresy, including contemporary Christian Gnosticism.[8] Tertullian has been called "the father of Latin Christianity"[9][10] and "the founder of Western theology."[11]

Though conservative in his worldview, Tertullian originated new theological concepts and advanced the development of early Church doctrine. He is perhaps most famous for being the first writer in Latin known to use the term trinity (Latin: trinitas).

Unlike many Church fathers, Tertullian was never recognized as a saint by the Eastern or Western catholic tradition churches. Several of his teachings on issues such as the clear subordination of the Son and Spirit to the Father,[12][13] as well as his condemnation of remarriage for widows and of fleeing from persecution, contradicted the doctrines of these traditions.

Tertullian - Wikipedia

According to Encyclopedia Britannica

The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.

It was not until later in the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.

The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.

Trinity | Definition, Theology, & History

What does the Bible say?

The only true God is the Father

Jesus Christ is a Man sent by the Father. Jesus is not an ordinary Man but a very special man approved by God. He was made Lord and Savior. God gave him a name over any other name that every creature in heaven and on earth should worship the Son of God.

The Holy Spirit is not God.

(1) Nowhere in the Bible that explicitly says that the Holy Spirit is God.

There is no single verse of the Bible that says that the Holy Spirit is God, nor that the Holy Spirit is the “third person of the trinity.” The word “Trinity” itself is unbiblical or cannot be found in the Bible. The Holy Spirit cannot be the “third person of the one true God” because the doctrine that God is consists of three persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) is against the teachings of the Bible. The Bible explicitly teaches that there is only one true God and there is no other God besides Him:

“Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me.” (Isaiah 46:9, NKJV)


(2) The Father alone is the One True God and the Holy Spirit is different from the Father.

The Lord Jesus taught that the Father alone is the true God:

“Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You…
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:1, 3, NKJV)

He also taught the Holy Spirit is different from the Father:

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:26, NKJV)

The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father in Jesus’ name. Thus, if the Holy Spirit is God there will be two Gods: the Father who sent the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit whom the Father sent in Jesus’ name.

Thus, the Holy Spirit cannot be God because the Lord Jesus Christ clearly taught that the Father alone is the true God and the Holy Spirit is different from the Father.


(3) The Holy Spirit cannot be God because it cannot possibly be equal to God.

The Trinity doctrine tells that the three persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) are coequal. However, this doctrine contradicts the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The Lord Jesus also taught that the One who sends is greater than the one sent:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.” (John 13:16, NKJV)

And the Lord Jesus Himself also taught the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father:

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:26, NKJV)

Thus, the Father (the One who sent) is greater than the Holy Spirit (the one who was sent). The Lord Jesus also taught that He Himself sends the Holy Spirit:

“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.” (John 15:26, NKJV)

The Lord Jesus taught that the One who sends is greater than the one sent. However, the Lord Jesus Himself was sent by the Father, the One True God:

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3, NKJV)

Thus, the Father alone is the true God, and no one else besides Him. The Holy Spirit is the “Helper” who the Father (the One True God) sends. Therefore, there is no “Trinity,” there is no “Triune God,” there is no “three persons in One God,” and the Holy Spirit is not God.

=====

Is the Bible influenced by pagan religions like the dogma of the Trinity?
Of course not, the Bible teaches who is God and who isn't.
However, Catholicism was indeed influenced by pagan religions.

images
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
The inventor of the dogma of the Trinity is from Tertullian

220px-Tertullian.jpg


Tertullian (/tərˈtʌliən/; Latin: Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus; c. 155 – c. 240? AD)[1] was a prolific early Christian author from Carthage in the Roman province of Africa.[2] Of Berber origin,[3][4][5][6][7] he was the first Christian author to produce an extensive corpus of Latin Christian literature. He was an early Christian apologist and a polemicist against heresy, including contemporary Christian Gnosticism.[8] Tertullian has been called "the father of Latin Christianity"[9][10] and "the founder of Western theology."[11]

Though conservative in his worldview, Tertullian originated new theological concepts and advanced the development of early Church doctrine. He is perhaps most famous for being the first writer in Latin known to use the term trinity (Latin: trinitas).

Unlike many Church fathers, Tertullian was never recognized as a saint by the Eastern or Western catholic tradition churches. Several of his teachings on issues such as the clear subordination of the Son and Spirit to the Father,[12][13] as well as his condemnation of remarriage for widows and of fleeing from persecution, contradicted the doctrines of these traditions.

Tertullian - Wikipedia

According to Encyclopedia Britannica

The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.

It was not until later in the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.

The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.

Trinity | Definition, Theology, & History

What does the Bible say?

The only true God is the Father

Jesus Christ is a Man sent by the Father. Jesus is not an ordinary Man but a very special man approved by God. He was made Lord and Savior. God gave him a name over any other name that every creature in heaven and on earth should worship the Son of God.

The Holy Spirit is not God.

(1) Nowhere in the Bible that explicitly says that the Holy Spirit is God.

There is no single verse of the Bible that says that the Holy Spirit is God, nor that the Holy Spirit is the “third person of the trinity.” The word “Trinity” itself is unbiblical or cannot be found in the Bible. The Holy Spirit cannot be the “third person of the one true God” because the doctrine that God is consists of three persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) is against the teachings of the Bible. The Bible explicitly teaches that there is only one true God and there is no other God besides Him:

“Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me.” (Isaiah 46:9, NKJV)


(2) The Father alone is the One True God and the Holy Spirit is different from the Father.

The Lord Jesus taught that the Father alone is the true God:

“Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You…
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:1, 3, NKJV)

He also taught the Holy Spirit is different from the Father:

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:26, NKJV)

The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father in Jesus’ name. Thus, if the Holy Spirit is God there will be two Gods: the Father who sent the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit whom the Father sent in Jesus’ name.

Thus, the Holy Spirit cannot be God because the Lord Jesus Christ clearly taught that the Father alone is the true God and the Holy Spirit is different from the Father.


(3) The Holy Spirit cannot be God because it cannot possibly be equal to God.

The Trinity doctrine tells that the three persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) are coequal. However, this doctrine contradicts the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The Lord Jesus also taught that the One who sends is greater than the one sent:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.” (John 13:16, NKJV)

And the Lord Jesus Himself also taught the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father:

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:26, NKJV)

Thus, the Father (the One who sent) is greater than the Holy Spirit (the one who was sent). The Lord Jesus also taught that He Himself sends the Holy Spirit:

“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.” (John 15:26, NKJV)

The Lord Jesus taught that the One who sends is greater than the one sent. However, the Lord Jesus Himself was sent by the Father, the One True God:

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3, NKJV)

Thus, the Father alone is the true God, and no one else besides Him. The Holy Spirit is the “Helper” who the Father (the One True God) sends. Therefore, there is no “Trinity,” there is no “Triune God,” there is no “three persons in One God,” and the Holy Spirit is not God.

=====

Is the Bible influenced by pagan religions like the dogma of the Trinity?
Of course not, the Bible teaches who is God and who isn't.
However, Catholicism was indeed influenced by pagan religions.

images

Well this is a rabbit hole. Just to confirm, I have no dog in this fight. I do find proof texting to be a bad way of sorting out the issue because one person provides their proofs and another provides theirs and it is just dependent on what texts a specific person prefers. I think the truth of the matter is in between Unitarianism and Trinitarianism.

I am interested in learning your view of the Holy Spirit though. Do you believe it/he is an intelligent being or an active force of God or something else?
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
I am interested in learning your view of the Holy Spirit though. Do you believe it/he is an intelligent being or an active force of God or something else?

The Holy Spirit as he is named is a spirit - created by God
upload_2020-5-23_4-46-57.jpeg

The Holy Spirit's function are to:
  1. will teach Christ's disciples all things, and
  2. bring to [their memory] remembrance all things that Jesus said to his disciples

That is why some people are in error because they do not have the Holy Spirit.

During the apostles' time, the Holy Spirit enabled them to speak to people in different languages for them to be understood.

Acts 2:4-12 New International Version (NIV)
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

upload_2020-5-23_4-46-57.jpeg


Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:32

Example of this is

ananias_2.png


Acts 5:1-10 New International Version (NIV)
Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

Further Mary the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ became pregnant through the Holy Spirit

upload_2020-5-23_5-27-59.jpeg


Matthew 1:18 New International Version (NIV)
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
The flood story is a common story around the world and they are similar. The writer of Genesis might have been influenced be the Epic of Gilgamesh, might have not.

giphy.gif




Epic of Gilgamesh | Summary, Characters, & Facts


The Ninevite version of the epic begins with a prologue in praise of Gilgamesh, part divine and part human, the great builder and warrior, knower of all things on land and sea. In order to curb Gilgamesh’s seemingly harsh rule, the god Anu causes the creation of Enkidu, a wild man who at first lives among animals. Soon, however, Enkidu is initiated into the ways of city life and travels to Uruk, where Gilgamesh awaits him. Tablet II describes a trial of strength between the two men in which Gilgamesh is the victor; thereafter, Enkidu is the friend and companion (in Sumerian texts, the servant) of Gilgamesh. In Tablets III–V the two men set out together against Huwawa (Humbaba), the divinely appointed guardian of a remote cedar forest, but the rest of the engagement is not recorded in the surviving fragments. In Tablet VI Gilgamesh, who has returned to Uruk, rejects the marriage proposal of Ishtar, the goddess of love, and then, with Enkidu’s aid, kills the divine bull that she sends to destroy him. Tablet VII begins with Enkidu’s account of a dream in which the gods Anu, Ea, and Shamash decide that Enkidu must die for slaying the bull. Enkidu then falls ill and dreams of the “house of dust” that awaits him. Gilgamesh’s lament for his friend and the state funeral of Enkidu are narrated in Tablet VIII. Afterward, Gilgamesh makes a dangerous journey (Tablets IX and X) in search of Utnapishtim, the survivor of the Babylonian Flood, in order to learn from him how to escape death. When he finally reaches Utnapishtim, Gilgamesh is told the story of the Flood and is shown where to find a plant that can renew youth (Tablet XI). But after Gilgamesh obtains the plant, it is seized and eaten by a serpent, and Gilgamesh returns, still mortal, to Uruk. An appendage to the epic, Tablet XII, relates the loss of objects called pukku and mikku (perhaps “drum” and “drumstick”) given to Gilgamesh by Ishtar. The epic ends with the return of the spirit of Enkidu, who promises to recover the objects and then gives a grim report on the underworld.
 

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Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
The Holy Spirit as he is named is a spirit - created by God
View attachment 40158

The Holy Spirit's function are to:
  1. will teach Christ's disciples all things, and
  2. bring to [their memory] remembrance all things that Jesus said to his disciples

That is why some people are in error because they do not have the Holy Spirit.

During the apostles' time, the Holy Spirit enabled them to speak to people in different languages for them to be understood.

Acts 2:4-12 New International Version (NIV)
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

View attachment 40158

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:32

Example of this is

ananias_2.png


Acts 5:1-10 New International Version (NIV)
Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

Further Mary the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ became pregnant through the Holy Spirit

View attachment 40159

Matthew 1:18 New International Version (NIV)
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

Would you say that the Holy Spirit is the same as the Spirit in the Old Testament?
Is it an intelligent being or an intelligent force (maybe like the force in Star Wars)?
Were miracles caused by the Holy Spirit active within believers?
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
giphy.gif




Epic of Gilgamesh | Summary, Characters, & Facts


The Ninevite version of the epic begins with a prologue in praise of Gilgamesh, part divine and part human, the great builder and warrior, knower of all things on land and sea. In order to curb Gilgamesh’s seemingly harsh rule, the god Anu causes the creation of Enkidu, a wild man who at first lives among animals. Soon, however, Enkidu is initiated into the ways of city life and travels to Uruk, where Gilgamesh awaits him. Tablet II describes a trial of strength between the two men in which Gilgamesh is the victor; thereafter, Enkidu is the friend and companion (in Sumerian texts, the servant) of Gilgamesh. In Tablets III–V the two men set out together against Huwawa (Humbaba), the divinely appointed guardian of a remote cedar forest, but the rest of the engagement is not recorded in the surviving fragments. In Tablet VI Gilgamesh, who has returned to Uruk, rejects the marriage proposal of Ishtar, the goddess of love, and then, with Enkidu’s aid, kills the divine bull that she sends to destroy him. Tablet VII begins with Enkidu’s account of a dream in which the gods Anu, Ea, and Shamash decide that Enkidu must die for slaying the bull. Enkidu then falls ill and dreams of the “house of dust” that awaits him. Gilgamesh’s lament for his friend and the state funeral of Enkidu are narrated in Tablet VIII. Afterward, Gilgamesh makes a dangerous journey (Tablets IX and X) in search of Utnapishtim, the survivor of the Babylonian Flood, in order to learn from him how to escape death. When he finally reaches Utnapishtim, Gilgamesh is told the story of the Flood and is shown where to find a plant that can renew youth (Tablet XI). But after Gilgamesh obtains the plant, it is seized and eaten by a serpent, and Gilgamesh returns, still mortal, to Uruk. An appendage to the epic, Tablet XII, relates the loss of objects called pukku and mikku (perhaps “drum” and “drumstick”) given to Gilgamesh by Ishtar. The epic ends with the return of the spirit of Enkidu, who promises to recover the objects and then gives a grim report on the underworld.

When I say influence, I do not mean exact replica or mostly a replica. It could just be that they heard about the Gilgamesh flood and made a story using that.

I don't think that is the case though because too many unrelated peoples had flood myths and many similarities, so I think there is some truth to the event even though various scientific branches haven't found geological evidence yet. Below are uncanny common elements:

- There was a flood occurred in the early stages of man's existence
- Only a few people survived (man and woman, 8 people, etc)
- They survived using a boat or some sea transport or wood.

Flood myth | mythology
How do we know the Bible was not written by demons?

There are stories which shows more obvious similarities to the biblical flood. The Sumerian version is older. :

Assyrian:

The gods, led by Enlil, agreed to cleanse the earth of an overpopulated humanity, but Utnapishtim was warned by the god Ea in a dream. He and some craftsmen built a large boat (one acre in area, seven decks) in a week. He then loaded it with his family, the craftsmen, and "the seed of all living creatures." The waters of the abyss rose up, and it stormed for six days. Even the gods were frightened by the flood's fury. Upon seeing all the people killed, the gods repented and wept. The waters covered everything but the top of the mountain Nisur, where the boat landed. Seven days later, Utnapishtim released a dove, but it returned finding nowhere else to land. He next returned a sparrow, which also returned, and then a raven, which did not return. Thus he knew the waters had receded enough for the people to emerge. Utnapishtim made a sacrifice to the gods. He and his wife were given immortality and lived at the end of the earth.


Babylonian:

Three times (every 1200 years), the gods were distressed by the disturbance from human overpopulation. The gods dealt with the problem first by plague, then by famine. Both times, the god Enki advised men to bribe the god causing the problem. The third time, Enlil advised the gods to destroy all humans with a flood, but Enki had Atrahasis build an ark and so escape. Also on the boat were cattle, wild animals and birds, and Atrahasis' family. When the storm came, Atrahasis sealed the door with bitumen and cut the boat's rope. The storm god Adad raged, turning the day black. After the seven-day flood, the gods regretted their action. Atrahasis made an offering to them, at which the gods gathered like flies, and Enki established barren women and stillbirth to avoid the problem in the future.


Sumerian:

The gods had decided to destroy mankind. The god Enlil warned the priest-king Ziusudra ("Long of Life") of the coming flood by speaking to a wall while Ziusudra listened at the side. He was instructed to build a great ship and carry beasts and birds upon it. Violent winds came, and a flood of rain covered the earth for seven days and nights. Then Ziusudra opened a window in the large boat, allowing sunlight to enter, and he prostrated himself before the sun-god Utu. After landing, he sacrificed a sheep and an ox and bowed before Anu and Enlil. For protecting the animals and the seed of mankind, he was granted eternal life and taken to the country of Dilmun, where the sun rises.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Would you say that the Holy Spirit is the same as the Spirit in the Old Testament?
Is it an intelligent being or an intelligent force (maybe like the force in Star Wars)?
Were miracles caused by the Holy Spirit active within believers?

I believe Hollywood has no business whatsoever in matters of faith.
So I could not comment on films made by Lucasfilm

The Spirit [of God] is one and the same as the Holy Spirit [with regards to the Old Testament]

Psalm 51:11 New International Version (NIV)
Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.

The Holy Spirit is described as the Helper / Advocate

John 14:26 New International Version (NIV)
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Miracles, Holy Spirit among believers....

1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 27-30 New International Version (NIV)
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Based on the verses above and the questions mentioned on the verse - what do you think is the answers?
 
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