How do you decide when you've won a debate?

[NobodyYouKnow]

Well played, sir.

icwotudidthar.

 

[Skwim]

If I'm taking part in a debate, I'm winning.

Hey! That was my line. :slap:

 

[Caladan]

Most of the time, the only reason I go into a debate is because there's some (usually new) troll irritating the hell out of everybody, but somehow managing to stay within the rules while they're doing it.

My mission, in such cases, is to irritate the hell out of the troll while also managing to stay within the rules.

My definite win is when the troll finally gives up and reports me for something that isn't even close to a rule violation.

That's my kick-back-and-smoke-a-cigar moment.

Staff on this site are so aggressive! I'm reporting you!

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

No, dear. You changed your mind after listening to Dustin. Very few people do that, you know: It's called, "being intelligent", and it's rare to almost nonexistent. And no one, but no one, has their mind changed for them against their will.

I totally agree with you.

Not meaning to be politically incorrect (and sorry about this), but there is an old saying...

However, and that being said...

....but it's so much fun. lol

 

[Alceste]

No, dear. You changed your mind after listening to Dustin. Very few people do that, you know: It's called, "being intelligent", and it's rare to almost nonexistent. And no one, but no one, has their mind changed for them against their will.

Sure, but the game is not to force people's minds to change, it's to annihilate crappy ideas in public, so the general public might observe how crappy ideas are constructed and defended.

When a superior scholar hears of Reason he endeavors to practise it.
When an average scholar hears of Reason he will sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it.
When an inferior scholar hears of Reason he will greatly ridicule it.
Were it not thus ridiculed, it would as Reason be insufficient.

~ odd translation of the Tao te Ching 41 I found on the interwebs that seems to apply here. (Suzuki and Carus, 1913).

 

[Sunstone]

I don't know - I still recall a few of Debater Slayer's first few discussions on the subject of women's rights on RF. That dude is my hero. You should ask him about it some time.

I'm not getting paid enough to try to change anyone's opinion, Alceste. That's what I used to do for a living, and it's what in a way I still do. But I expect money for it. RF is recreation, not work.

 

[Quagmire]

Staff on this site are so aggressive! I'm reporting you!

:cigar:

 

[Alceste]

I'm not getting paid enough to try to change anyone's opinion, Alceste. That's what I used to do for a living, and it's what in a way I still do. But I expect money for it. RF is recreation, not work.

Whoah, dude, how do you go about changing opinions for a living? I totally want that job, and I'm looking for a job at the moment. I was flying pretty high for a while there, but the bottom dropped out and there are bills to pay.

 

[Alceste]

I normally seek to talk with someone, to show another angle, to inform. I don't see a point in debating for the sake of "winning", an attitude which already assumes fixed answers and bending a thread to that aim (a winning answer). This is still the Internet, people arent normally too informed, and the debate for winning mentality expresses it well. My real debates usually take place in 'real life', where people are held to higher standards.

That's a pity, Caladan. If you pulled out your A game on anything related to archaeology, I'd probably change my mind to whatever you think almost immediately, even if I thought otherwise to begin with. I might fact check you first, since nobody is immune, but I accept that you know way more about your profession from being an archaeologist than I do from reading pop sci and playing tombraider.

 

[StarryNightshade]

I usually don't debate, because I don't think anyone really "wins".

Both sides make points, often times logical fallacies are used, eventually one side backs down or both reach a stalemate, and the supporters of each respective side will claim that their side "won".

That's how I usually see it.

 

[Alceste]

I usually don't debate, because I don't think anyone really "wins".

Both sides make points, often times logical fallacies are used, eventually one side backs down or both reach a stalemate, and the supporters of each respective side will claim that their side "won".

That's how I usually see it.

Ironically, the side that is the first to proclaim victory loses. That's one of my rules. lol.

 

[Sunstone]

Whoah, dude, how do you go about changing opinions for a living? I totally want that job, and I'm looking for a job at the moment. I was flying pretty high for a while there, but the bottom dropped out and there are bills to pay.

I was once a successful sales person, for starters. Number one in my company, Number one among the competitors in my territory. Are you looking for a job in one of the persuasion industries? I've worked in both sales and marketing, but I won't be much help to you because I am totally burnt out. I have significantly less interest in persuasion these days than I have in feminine hygiene sprays. All I do these days is what little I need to do to support a modest life style.

 

[Alceste]

I was once a successful sales person, for starters. Number one in my company, Number one among the competitors in my territory. Are you looking for a job in one of the persuasion industries? I've worked in both sales and marketing, but I won't be much help to you because I am totally burnt out. I have significantly less interest in persuasion these days than I have in feminine hygiene sprays. All I do these days is what little I need to do to support a modest life style.

Oh god, barf. Never mind. Lol. I still love you, but ew.

 

[Sunstone]

Oh god, barf. Never mind. Lol. I still love you, but ew.

That's pretty much what I guessed your reaction would be.

 

[Alceste]

That's pretty much what I guessed your reaction would be.

Sure, but it's an ironic and hypocritical reaction, since I also make a bit of money from marketing. But I tell myself I'm "writing" and my clients are normal people and not capitalist pigs. You can do that these days.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Interesting topic. Couple of idle thoughts on this;

1) I can be convinced pretty easily about some topics. If I reflect, they are generally factually based, and areas of interest (as opposed to things I've built my worldview directly on). So Vouthon convinced me I might be wrong about the impact of the Treaty of Versailles in about 3 posts. Quality posts, but there ya go. I think he could have 'won' if he kept posting, but he vanished from the thread. He definitely changed my view on the topic a little. And Legion regularly dismantles my opinion of my own intelligence just through his use of intimidating words. Ahem.

2) The only times I have really had that 'Yeah, I won...' type feeling was when I had a light bulb moment of some sort (and kinda lost the debate but lost some ignorance along with it) or flamed a troll to the point they sooked off, which is not generally my sport of choice. Or made a post that was so funny I fell off my chair.

3) In general I post here because I find it interesting, and I sometimes learn stuff. Sometimes that stuff is even important, and not icky. Interestingly this seems to depend on which particular RF member I am debating.

4) A traditional debate win is not going to happen with any regularity on an open forum, regardless of the strength of argument, so it's kinda best to just make peace with that.

 

[Badran]

A traditional debate win is not going to happen with any regularity on an open forum, regardless of the strength of argument, so it's kinda best to just make peace with that.

You make peace with that. Others with winning charisma don't need no such thing.

Just cuz you can't do it don't mean others can't too. :beach:

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You make peace with that. Others with winning charisma don't need no such thing.

Just cuz you can't do it don't mean others can't too. :beach:

Hmmm....the fact that I find this an amazingly convincing argument and am now changing my opinion strongly suggests you are right.

My avatar clearly needs a face. This would boost my charisma. Shields have never been known for their coolness.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I was once a successful sales person, for starters. Number one in my company, Number one among the competitors in my territory.

Meep! My file on you might need to be reviewed. Whilst technically I work in sales (since I own my own company it's kinda unavoidable) I deliberately keep my 'patter' to a minimum, and lack smoothness. This is NOT, I might stress, because I couldn't be as smooth as a baby's bum if I so felt the need. Oh no. I lack smoothness because I am morally principled. Ahem...

Are you looking for a job in one of the persuasion industries? I've worked in both sales and marketing, but I won't be much help to you because I am totally burnt out.

My respect for you just increased again. Burnt out sales people are 37% less likely to stitch up their friends over a possible deal, and 61% more likely to naively believe stats I made up on the spot.

I have significantly less interest in persuasion these days than I have in feminine hygiene sprays.

This is hardly a big call given your obsession with feminine hygiene sprays. It is akin to Hannibal Lecter suggesting 'I have sufficiently less interest in tormenting Clarice Starling than I do in chowing down on a nice human brain'.

All I do these days is what little I need to do to support a modest life style.

Calling 30 liter bottles of FemFresh 'modest' is just another example of sales-speak, I guess. *sighs*

 

[Alceste]

Here's anther thing that changed my opinions, short and sweet.

Hollywood Cop A: "do you ever wonder if you're a bad guy?"

Hollywood cop B: "No, I don't wonder. The world needs bad guys. We keep the other bad guys away from the door."

From memory, but probably fairly close. My point is that everybody should watch True Detective. There are numerous scenes that convince me the writers have been lurking on RF for years.