How do you decide when you've won a debate?

[Sunstone]

Whilst technically I work in sales (since I own my own company it's kinda unavoidable)...

I had my own little company at one point too. The trouble is, I had by that time in my life a track record that I misinterpreted. My track record clearly indicated that I could swim. But I thought it clearly indicated I could walk on water. A slight but significant difference that caused me to over-reach, and eventually, to go out of business.

I deliberately keep my 'patter' to a minimum, and lack smoothness. This is NOT, I might stress, because I couldn't be as smooth as a baby's bum if I so felt the need. Oh no. I lack smoothness because I am morally principled. Ahem...

I began sales as the world's worse salesperson ever. Totally incompetent. But my boss saw something no one else did, and invested in me. So, I was quite lucky.

I am now back to being totally incompetent again, because I really am burnt out. These days, I'd be way too indifferent to make quota even selling port leave to sailors.

 

[LuisDantas]

I've got the nerve to tell you - you do very well in general but tend to "lose" debates on drug prohibition.

Many people seem to think so. I guess I will never convince them otherwise.

Your arguments are very rational and persuasive, but you would do much better if you could find statistical evidence to back up your position.

Nah. If it is not good enough for me (and it is not), then I can hardly find it good enough for anyone else. One of my arguments is that statistics are all but meaningless for this kind of discussion. After all, the main specimen is that the (Alcohol) Prohibition is supposedly evidence that legalization is a good thing - yet it is not like alcohol became a non-problem.

Social problems can't be argued that way, far as I care.

You tend to rely on social harm based arguments, but you need to demonstrate (with facts and references) that decriminalization causes greater social harm than prohibition to win that debate. Just my two bits. Take it or leave it, but if you take it I look forward to the day you can beat me in that debate.

Unlikely to happen, Alceste... I do not want to win that debate by using that angle. It counters my goals.

Thanks for the praise, anyway.

 

[YmirGF]

I flipping love debating ideas with people on the internet. That's my video games.

But unlike video games, there's no levels, no points and no endings in an internet debate. Internet debates just go on forever, getting stupider and stupider as the page count climbs. So I've made some rules up myself, which I will share later, to efficiently determine the "win, lose or draw" factor and move on to new discussions.

What about you? How do you decide how you are doing in a debate, and who, if anyone, is "winning"? How do you go about crafting a knock-out post?

I understand there are some people here who actually want to discuss ideas and learn about other points of view, and that's cool too. It takes all kinds.

I'm not terribly interested in "winning" a debate with a stranger on the Interweb. To be honest, my New Year's Resolution was something like, "When I encounter a low information person who is spouting ludicrous drivel, I will no longer take them to task, rather, I'll simply say, "Well, that is a fascinating viewpoint and one that would not normally entertain."

 

[Alceste]

I'm not terribly interested in "winning" a debate with a stranger on the Interweb. To be honest, my New Year's Resolution was something like, "When I encounter a low information person who is spouting ludicrous drivel, I will no longer take them to task, rather, I'll simply say, "Well, that is a fascinating viewpoint and one that would not normally entertain."

That's why I ordinarily try to stick to debating people who have well-reasoned, thoughtful positions. There's only so much sport to be had from talking to people who are just bonkers.

 

[BSM1]

Oh yeah? I'm rubber, you're glue.

Oh yeah? Oh yeah? Well...umm.. ah hell, you win.

 

[HonestJoe]

Discussions here don't need to be competitive in that manner of course, but where they are, I think it's worth remembering that competitive debate generally isn't about convincing the person presenting the opposing view (and in places like this, that's unlikely) but about convincing an audience. That's why many formal debate formats involve audience votes before and after the debate - shifting their views in your direction over the course of the debate can be considered a win.

In forums like this, where that can be measured at all, it's by things frubals, reputation comments or post likes. Certainly when I post something and get some positive responses via those means, that's as close to a "win" as I really need. Most of the time though, I resign myself to never knowing how my posts are really received by the people reading them (though I like to imagine you all sitting there going "Of course!", "That's what I wanted to say." and "Isn't he smart." ).

 

[Revoltingest]

Discussions here don't need to be competitive in that manner of course, but where they are, I think it's worth remembering that competitive debate generally isn't about convincing the person presenting the opposing view (and in places like this, that's unlikely) but about convincing an audience. That's why many formal debate formats involve audience votes before and after the debate - shifting their views in your direction over the course of the debate can be considered a win.

In forums like this, where that can be measured at all, it's by things frubals, reputation comments or post likes. Certainly when I post something and get some positive responses via those means, that's as close to a "win" as I really need. Most of the time though, I resign myself to never knowing how my posts are really received by the people reading them (though I like to imagine you all sitting there going "Of course!", "That's what I wanted to say." and "Isn't he smart." ).

Has one really won if the accolades are awarded by a partisan audience?
The only frubals I get are from:
- Posters who agreed with me before a conversation even started.
- Posters who want me to plant hostas in their gardens.
This is no win at all, nice though it be to get brownie points.

Winning is generally an illusion in the mind of the winner & his/her allies.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Has one really won if the accolades are awarded by a partisan audience?
The only frubals I get are from:
- Posters who agreed with me before a conversation even started.
- Posters who want me to plant hostas in their gardens.
This is no win at all, nice though it be to get brownie points.

I give you frubals because you amuse me. :yes:

 

[Revoltingest]

I give you frubals because you amuse me. :yes:

I'll give you one of these if I ever pass thru your corner of the world....

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I had my own little company at one point too. The trouble is, I had by that time in my life a track record that I misinterpreted. My track record clearly indicated that I could swim. But I thought it clearly indicated I could walk on water. A slight but significant difference that caused me to over-reach, and eventually, to go out of business.

Ahhh...it's a tricky balance, that's for sure. I tend towards the conservative, so my biggest risk is not going for it when opportunity presents. But I've fumbled along pretty well so far.

I began sales as the world's worse salesperson ever. Totally incompetent. But my boss saw something no one else did, and invested in me. So, I was quite lucky.

As was your boss. Maybe the two of you made your own luck? Him through insight, and you through...umm...well, whatever it is he/she saw in you. Raw talent.

I am now back to being totally incompetent again, because I really am burnt out. These days, I'd be way too indifferent to make quota even selling port leave to sailors.

You need to get into consulting, and advise people how to sell port leave, instead of actually suffering through the pressure of selling it yourself. If you need help moving into consulting, I have set up a consulting about consulting service. I figure the more times I add the word 'consulting' to my business card, the more I can charge.

 

[Tumah]

What about you? How do you decide how you are doing in a debate, and who, if anyone, is "winning"?

When I get the prize money, I know I've won.

 

[BSM1]

Has one really won if the accolades are awarded by a partisan audience?
The only frubals I get are from:
- Posters who agreed with me before a conversation even started.
- Posters who want me to plant hostas in their gardens.
This is no win at all, nice though it be to get brownie points.

Winning is generally an illusion in the mind of the winner & his/her allies.

I started to frubal you but I thought "Just because he's right doesn't mean he should win".

 

[Sunstone]

You need to get into consulting, and advise people how to sell port leave, instead of actually suffering through the pressure of selling it yourself. If you need help moving into consulting, I have set up a consulting about consulting service. I figure the more times I add the word 'consulting' to my business card, the more I can charge.

Thank you very much. That's kind of you, but I like my modest lifestyle these days. It's ridiculously simple, but I believe the more things that you own, the more things that own you.

 

[Alceste]

Thank you very much. That's kind of you, but I like my modest lifestyle these days. It's ridiculously simple, but I believe the more things that you own, the more things that own you.

Maybe you could become a simplicity consultant.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Thank you very much. That's kind of you, but I like my modest lifestyle these days. It's ridiculously simple, but I believe the more things that you own, the more things that own you.

Then you should set up a consultancy, and convince my wife. I think there is a lot of merit in what you say.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

You also know you've won a debate/thread, when whatever you post in it, never sees any replies...then again, it could be everybody else just ignoring you....however, people's egos don't let them ignore another for long whenever they have the chance to prove somebody else wrong...so yep, debate won right there.

There are a few threads I am posting in at the moment, where I am only talking to myself. I quote people to try and get a debate even happening, but it isn't working. Whatever I say, just stays said and nobody is even acknowledging my existence anywhere, so I end up quoting myself and debating with myself (I am so used to doing that anyway).

That's a debate I know I can win...now, off to quote and reply to myself some more to annoy people into giving me a response...any response to stop me from doing it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I usually stop replying when I have to resort to repeating myself over and the discussion is going around in circles. Also, when the other person's argument is getting more and more absurd. I have very little patience with people and a short temper.

 

[Ouroboros]

You also know you've won a debate/thread, when whatever you post in it, never sees any replies...then again, it could be everybody else just ignoring you....however, people's egos don't let them ignore another for long whenever they have the chance to prove somebody else wrong...so yep, debate won right there.

In my case, I think people just hate me and don't want to talk to me anymore.

There are a few threads I am posting in at the moment, where I am only talking to myself. I quote people to try and get a debate even happening, but it isn't working. Whatever I say, just stays said and nobody is even acknowledging my existence anywhere, so I end up quoting myself and debating with myself (I am so used to doing that anyway).

Hey, I'm quoting you. Therefore you exist!

I usually stop replying when I have to resort to repeating myself over and the discussion is going around in circles. Also, when the other person's argument is getting more and more absurd. I have very little patience with people and a short temper.

Same.

I've learned to master my temper in real life, but online... certain things just get me.

 

[Alceste]

I usually stop replying when I have to resort to repeating myself over and the discussion is going around in circles. Also, when the other person's argument is getting more and more absurd. I have very little patience with people and a short temper.

See, that's where the point system comes in handy. It gives me clear cues when it's time to stop, so I don't end up going in circles. Is your opponent avoiding the point? You win! Name calling? Win! Doubling down on a logical fallacy after it's been pointed out? Win!

Granted, I do realize I've just described 99% of all internet discussion, but still. The rules make it more fun, and they also improve my own rhetorical skills.

 

[dust1n]

I saw memes!