How do you define SCIENCE?

[YoursTrue]

Just came across this: "Scholars have long been flummoxed as to why the language spoken by 90 percent of Australia’s Aboriginal people is relatively young--approximately 4,000 years old according to language experts--if their ancestors had occupied the continent so much earlier." DNA Study Finds Aboriginal Australians World’s Oldest Civilization | HISTORY

 

[shunyadragon]

(lol) you're funny but not too often.

The stories of cud-chewing rabbits and toy dinosaurs from Mexico make these threads amusing.

 

[John53]

I read some of that, seeing the ideas as to how they left Africa, etc. What I find interesting is that they did not develop a system of writing until colonization.

They did in a way. Rock art and cave paintings which tell a story.

 

[YoursTrue]

They did in a way. Rock art and cave paintings which tell a story.

I still find it fascinating. About the writing. For several reasons.

 

[John53]

I still find it fascinating. About the writing. For several reasons.

Pretty much the same for all hunter/gatherer societies. I'm not sure if Indigenous Americans had writing until European occupation but I haven't heard of it if they did. Not according to this site.

Did any Native Americans have writing systems? - Studybuff.com

Did any Native Americans have writing systems? Writing and texts No native writing system was known among North American Indians at the time of first European contact, unlike the Maya, Aztecs, Mixtecs, and Zapotecs of Mesoamerica who had native writing systems. Did First Nations have a written...

studybuff.com

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Shaka, when the walls fell.

Nothing funny here either.

Hey! An ST:TNG fan!

Picard was cool. All of the cast members were topshelf, I thought.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I've lived in Australia all my life and never heard of an Indigenous festival of the dead. I googled it and found nothing. I asked a friend who is a Worrimi and he hasn't heard of it. I do know for many of the various Aboriginal cultures it is forbidden to speak the name of the deceased or even talk about them. So like you I would be interested in reading his source.

Here you go:

In his book, “NEW MATERIALS FOR THE HISTORY OF MAN: Derived From the Calendars and Festivals of Nations; The Festivals of the Dead — Vol.1”, Robert Grant Haliburton wrote regarding these Festivals of the Dead:

“It is now, or was formerly, observed at or near the beginning of November by the Peruvians, the Hindoos, the Pacific Islanders, the people of the Tonga Islands, the Australians, the ancient Peruvians, the ancient Egyptians, and the northern nations of Europe, and continued for three days among the Japanese, the Hindoos, the Australians, the ancient Romans, and the ancient Egyptians. pp. 11-12

This can’t be any coincidence.

These festival traditions have carried on so long, that their origins & the reasons behind them, have been forgotten.

But the time of year — end of October, beginning of November — are the dates the Bible gives for the Flood!

This information is supported by another researcher, British Col. John Garnier, in his book
“The Worship of the Dead; Or, the Origin and Nature of Pagan Idolatry and It’s Bearing Upon the Early History of Egypt and Babylonia”.

I have Col. Garnier’s book, but not Halliburton’s.

I know Garnier’s is loaded with references. Unfortunately, the print & font quality are terrible! I got it through Amazon.

 

[blü 2]

The discussion is about SCIENCE -- Creation -- and religion. How do you define science, first of all? One definition of science: (yes, I know there are different "branches" of science, but looking for a broad definition):
Science: "The systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained:"
If possible, limit discussion to the definition of SCIENCE before striking out to other areas.

Given that by 'science' we mean 'physical science' and not simply knowledge acquired by study and reasoned enquiry, that seems like a handy start to a definition.

 

[John53]

Here you go:



I have Col. Garnier’s book, but not Halliburton’s.

I know Garnier’s is loaded with references. Unfortunately, the print & font quality are terrible! I got it through Amazon.

I'll see if I can find it. I wonder which Australians he is talking about. There are numerous different indigenous cultures, about 250 I think, that vary greatly. It was never 1 big similar culture. In 62 years I've never heard of a festival of the dead.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I'll see if I can find it. I wonder which Australians he is talking about. There are numerous different indigenous cultures, about 250 I think, that vary greatly. It was never 1 big similar culture. In 62 years I've never heard of a festival of the dead.

250 cultures! That is a lot!
But then Australia is huge… and that’s not unlike North American Indian cultures, the number I mean. Did these Australian Aborigines not get along, like the American Natives?

Sometimes these festivals were called “feasts”. And apparently, in Australia, the festival / feast lasted for 3 days.

 

[YoursTrue]

They did in a way. Rock art and cave paintings which tell a story.

Genealogy and detailed information like that? Dates? Names?

 

[cladking]

Hey! An ST:TNG fan!

Picard was cool. All of the cast members were topshelf, I thought.

The series might not have stood the test of time as well as I had hoped by they had several truly remarkable episodes that will live forever.

"Darmok" was among the finest and relevant because it shows not only other ways to talk but to think. Without ever considering other means, modes, and types of thinking some people would have us to believe not only that science is correct by definition but no other science can exist and no other definitions for our science are possible. They don't try to put themselves in the heads of ancient people, Darmok, or even Sir Isaac Newton. They are a product of their time and place and they don't even know it.

Tamarian is hardly a proper language for the development of space travel since it is overly imprecise and overly limiting in meaning but certainly one can think and function in any language. One can gather knowledge about reality by any methodical and logical means. And with any means to gather knowledge at all there is either cohesiveness or interpretation. With our means there is interpretation and each interpretation is called a "paradigm".

 

[shunyadragon]

Just came across this: "Scholars have long been flummoxed as to why the language spoken by 90 percent of Australia’s Aboriginal people is relatively young--approximately 4,000 years old according to language experts--if their ancestors had occupied the continent so much earlier." DNA Study Finds Aboriginal Australians World’s Oldest Civilization | HISTORY

The physical history of the Aboriginal people is well documented. The later evolution of language does not change that. The lack of a current explanation for the language does not change the dating. I actually doubt the explanation they gave in the article.

I still find it fascinating. About the writing. For several reasons.

OK? What reasons? The writings have been dated older than 4,000 years.

 

[John53]

Genealogy and detailed information like that? Dates? Names?

I doubt it, saying the name of a deceased person is frowned upon, I guess that would apply to writing it down as well. I doubt any of those things would be of any importance to a hunter/gather society. More likely they record territorial boundaries, permanent water and things like that.

 

[John53]

250 cultures! That is a lot!
But then Australia is huge… and that’s not unlike North American Indian cultures, the number I mean. Did these Australian Aborigines not get along, like the American Natives?

There was some conflicts recorded by early settlers but they could have been caused by the settlers chasing tribes into neighbouring territories. There's virtually no record of Indigenous culture before European settlement and precious little after.

Sometimes these festivals were called “feasts”. And apparently, in Australia, the festival / feast lasted for 3 days.

According to my Worimi friend feasts were impromptu events when there was excess food like a whale being beached or when the mullet were on a spawning run. Word would be passed to neighbouring clans and tribes. Only planned events he is aware of is initiation ceremonies.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The series might not have stood the test of time as well as I had hoped by they had several truly remarkable episodes that will live forever.

"Darmok" was among the finest and relevant because it shows not only other ways to talk but to think. Without ever considering other means, modes, and types of thinking some people would have us to believe not only that science is correct by definition but no other science can exist and no other definitions for our science are possible. They don't try to put themselves in the heads of ancient people, Darmok, or even Sir Isaac Newton. They are a product of their time and place and they don't even know it.

Tamarian is hardly a proper language for the development of space travel since it is overly imprecise and overly limiting in meaning but certainly one can think and function in any language. One can gather knowledge about reality by any methodical and logical means. And with any means to gather knowledge at all there is either cohesiveness or interpretation. With our means there is interpretation and each interpretation is called a "paradigm".

Yes, a TV show is only as good as the ideas that producers & writers come up with.
That language was overly simplistic, and would not aid a science-based, “warp-capable” society.

But it was entertaining. I liked Paul Winfield’s acting.

 

[YoursTrue]

I doubt it, saying the name of a deceased person is frowned upon, I guess that would apply to writing it down as well. I doubt any of those things would be of any importance to a hunter/gather society. More likely they record territorial boundaries, permanent water and things like that.

Hmm, now you got me wondering why they are (were) afraid to say the name of a deceased person. Interesting point about hunter/gatherer society in reference to recorded history, which makes me (my mind) look to view the history as recorded in the Bible in contrast. Now I should review the history from line of (recorded) descent from Abraham on.

 

[John53]

Hmm, now you got me wondering why they are (were) afraid to say the name of a deceased person.

Beliefs are diverse amongst Indigenous Australians so like everyone else in the world they're most likely to have the religious/spiritual beliefs of their parents.

Interesting point about hunter/gatherer society in reference to recorded history, which makes me (my mind) look to view the history as recorded in the Bible in contrast. Now I should review the history from line of (recorded) descent from Abraham on.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[YoursTrue]

Beliefs are diverse amongst Indigenous Australians so like everyone else in the world they're most likely to have the religious/spiritual beliefs of their parents.



I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I believe the Bible is God's way of communicating with mankind. The history in the Bible is detailed, including lineages of descent, particularly from Abraham on down through the Israelites. I like to keep things short, John53, so I am going to leave it there. They wrote things down and passed the scrolls on. It's an interesting account about the passage of the scrolls throughout the generations.
Also it would be interesting to see why some are so afraid to even say the names of the dead. Now that I think about it, even if they wrote down their history, they couldn't repeat the names of their dead relatives perhaps? Or any dead person.

 

[John53]

I believe the Bible is God's way of communicating with mankind. The history in the Bible is detailed, including lineages of descent, particularly from Abraham on down through the Israelites. I like to keep things short, John53, so I am going to leave it there. They wrote things down and passed the scrolls on. It's an interesting account about the passage of the scrolls throughout the generations.
Also it would be interesting to see why some are so afraid to even say the names of the dead. Now that I think about it, even if they wrote down their history, they couldn't repeat the names of their dead relatives perhaps? Or any dead person.

Then he failed for 60,000 years with the Aboriginals and numerous other peoples around the world. And when he did get around to sending it to them it mostly brought misery and death.