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How do you define SCIENCE?

gnostic

The Lost One
The discussion is about SCIENCE -- Creation -- and religion. How do you define science, first of all? One definition of science: (yes, I know there are different "branches" of science, but looking for a broad definition):
Science: "The systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained:"
If possible, limit discussion to the definition of SCIENCE before striking out to other areas.

The “systematic study” of the “physical and natural world” is the set of explanations and set of predictions as to WHAT “parts” of the world it is studying, as well as studying HOW they respectively “work” (eg the physical processes, or the mechanisms of those “parts”).

Explaining the WHATs and explaining the HOWs are the essential components of any development of the model or hypothesis; the “formulation of the model” or the hypothesis is described as the first half of the Scientific Method.

The other half of the definition “…through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained” is the second half of the Scientific Method - the “testing of the model” or testing of the hypothesis.

In this part of Scientific Method, the purpose of the testing the model, are ATTEMPTS TO REFUTE THE MODEL with observations.

observations include experiments and evidence, and such observations often provide information about “the physical and natural world”, such as properties of the objects, quantitative information and measurements are essential parts of observations.

For instance, when a technician opened up tv, radio or computer, he has number of devices that are tools that can diagnose where faulty component(s) are causing malfunction of the tv, radio or computer circuitry (eg components such as transistors, resistors, capacitors, etc). These devices can include multimeter or oscilloscope That can measure the electrical power and current running through the circuit, the voltage of each components. The oscilloscope can do the same thing as multimeter, but they have other function, such as measuring the periods, frequencies, wavelengths of specific type of analog or digital signals.

These measuring tools are essential that not only detect and measure electricity and electric fields, those measurements are part of information or data, the means to test the faults in tv, radio or computer.

The points in my example, is to show how important data gathering are, when it come to experimentation and evidence gathering. Data are themselves ”evidence” that scientists need to analyse when it comes to “testing the model”. Data are what needed when they presented their hypotheses before Peer Review.

getting back to Scientific Method, the testing of the model use OBSERVATIONS (evidence & experiments plus data) to verify or to refute model.

Scientific Method, in both parts (formulation of hypothesis & testing the hypothesis) all come back to the first requirement of what is science - Falsifiability.

Every models (every hypotheses, every theories) must be falsifiable.

Science illiterate people often misunderstand what it means by model being “falsifiable”.

it means that any idea, any concept or framework, any explantation, they all needs to be “testable” and “refutable”.

It mean, the scientists must develop the model that have the potential to test and to refute the model. Falsifiability is all about the ability to find faults with the hypothesis, finding the flaws and weaknesses of the hypothesis, to have the potential to refute and reject the hypothesis.

Unfalsifiable ideas, unfalsifiable concepts or frameworks, unfalsifiable explanations are the ones that cannot be tested, therefore it goes against Falsifiability and against Scientific Method.

Intelligent Design is unfalsifiable concepts. So are Irreducible Complexity. There have be no evidence, no experiments and no data, to test either ID or IC, because they are both untestable.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
I didn’t say citizens weren’t capable of understanding science, i said there is more science out there, and how much time do any of us have to learn it? And i do wonder how much the average student understands about basic science.
There are studies/hard numbers that show the increase in intelligence with each generation, the Flynn Effect is one example. Your wondering is your choice.
Decided? We observe contempt for science all around us, from online debates, to family members, to government officials, and on the floor of congress itself. So I have decided nothing except that I won’t ignore these people exist and influence society in numerous ways that have very negative consequences.
Fine, you have not decided. At the same time you sound absolutely convinced that you personally will not "ignore these people exist and influence society in numerous ways that have very negative consequences." Close enough.

It's been fun, thanks for the convo.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
Many people are under severe conditions because of deteriorating atmospheric complications. Most promoted by greed. (Gas, oil, for example.) Yet the governments spend fantastic amounts on "exploring space." Why, so mankind can settle somewhere else and ruin that atmosphere also?
Let me know if/when ur interested in hard numbers/studies. There's the possibility that if we got into particulars we'd find a lot of agreement.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
It depends who's looking at what. I mean which branch of science is being examined and what majority opinion may be. Even if the conclusions are wrong.
We may be drifting apart here, I thought we were talking about word definitions --linguistics. The various definitions of the word "science" could be useful even while ignoring the minutia of the various scientific disciplines.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The definition you quote looks fairly good to me. The only supplementary point might be that the observation and experimentation needs to be as objective as possible, a goal which in practice is sought by the requirement that results obtained should be reproducible.
This is complete nonsense.

"Objectivism" is a philosophical construct that has nothing whatever to do with science, except in the biased minds of the "scientism" cult. They label the data gathered by the scientific process "objective" and then worship it as if it were the fountain of all wisdom and truth. But it's neither objective nor subjective. It's just data. Information that scientists can use to explore the next unknown possibility.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I would note that everyone should be careful about other definitions of words in the definition of science. :confused:


For example, the word “evidence”.
A misinformed person might hypothesize that. — “If there is a God, who responds to prayers, and interacts one on one with human beings,
—> then people will pray, and some of them will have their prayers answered.
” “Now all we need to do is find reproducible evidence to support my hypothesis.” :yum:

Hmmmmm……
1. Billions of people pray. :thumbsup:
2. Many of these people report having their prayers answered.

“There you go. The evidence supports the hypothesis.”

Additionally, since you require reproducibility in these results, I present to you- -
3. Millions of other people, all of whom regularly pray, have their prayers answered.

. Ergot: God exists. :gradcap::innocent:
That's an informative post. And it's why we should stop seeing the data derived by scientific experimentation as "evidence" of anything. Scientists determine possibilities and then test to see if they are indeed possible. Some possibilities stand up to testing and some do not. And the data that results from the testing helps the scientists to formulate new possibilities. At no point are these scientists determining "the truth" of anything. So they are not "gathering evidence" for the establishment of some truth. They are simply determining and testing the possibilities.

This whole business about science pursuing truth is called "scientism". Not science.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
But they don’t of course.

And there is no such definition of science, to my knowledge. What source can you cite that defines science this way?
That is called casino science, which allows any theory, with a fear induction, to linger. Risk, for example, is a good buzz word that makes all that possible. If we have one in a million data points, that support a risk base theory and the next study, finds two data points, the risk has doubled. Double the risk is scary stuff, so we cannot just abandon the theory. This usually occurs when bureaucracy leads science with money and a stick, for political purposes. I do not consider this real science, but they have lab coats and get to do the fake news circuit, so has to be science.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
We need to separate real science from casino science, since it is almost impossible to falsify casino science theory and make it stick, due to the fuzzy dice of fear. Real science has a definitive line in the sand so it can be falsified with a few data points. The theory of perpetual motion has been challenged for decades but nobody can prove it exists with even one data point. I like definitive science both for clarity and for the challenge.

Casino science is actually quite old and has a connection to the old time religious claim of the whims of the Gods. This may be why fear is often the best buzz word; fear the whims of the Gods, to allow casino science theory to linger. Religion tends to have no problem with real science; Chemistry or Physics. The religious war begins with the casino sciences like evolution. Could evolutionary theory stand on its own without dice and cards and an oracle to the whims of the gods? Is there a solid line in the sand, without sentiment, for falsification?

I can show how water is critical to evolution. This analysis does not need dice and cards. This is more like old fashion rational science which may appear alien to the young people. Water is everywhere in life and is the dominant molecule in life, and therefore can be added as an addendum to all analysis at any level. Casino science averages this a black box. But casino science is not about truth, since truth is clear and clean and not fuzzy dice. Fuzzy dice is the platform for lingering illusions.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
I agree with that.

The question I have is how does the statistical approach to science and to theory verification, affect theory and evidence? If you have two sharp data points, there is only one line length, at one angle, that connects those two sharp points. If you have two fuzzy data points, like we have in statistical experiments, the slope and length of the connecting line can both vary.

For example, Einstein's theories of Relativity have been tested and retested and there are no exceptions. If there was one data point, that did not touch, this discovery would shake the science and physics communities to the core. When you do statistical studies, half the data does not even have to touch the curve. This allows any theory a way to linger. This cheapens theory.

For example, a statistical study may say that too much salt will give you high blood pressure. Say I liked salt, but my blood pressure stays normal. I have falsified the theory, so why is the theory allowed to linger?

As another example, COVID was a very deadly virus with over 1 million people dead world wide. What about the 8 billion people who are still with us? it appears the data against being deadly; falsified, far outweigh the prediction of the deadly, yet the theory gets to linger.

The answer is fuzzy dice science often makes use of emotions, such as fear, with emotion not part of old time science. You cannot be fully objective when you get too emotional, which is why science depends on external evidence like 8 billion people who are still with us. If you are too emotional, you will not see this, due to being focused on the boogeyman, who might get you, if you look away.

Has this statistical approach watered down science and science theory, compared to a time when rational and math logic led science, and emotion was not part of a theory's charm; fear? The state of the art in Physics, today, was done by the 1920's, with the rest, to the present, more or less derivative; post water down.

This is why I am not sure how should we define contemporary science, that uses a watered down standard of evidence, that can keep any theory on life support, using emotions to interface it to politics, gambling and marketing. Winning a lottery, although unlikely, still gives us hope of a good outcome; feelings. While politicians sell and make promise which they do not keep. What are the odds of that?

Would science get better if we did not allow the watered down standard that conflicts with sharp data point evidence and cause and affect?
What a lot of folks don't know is that it's possible to start w/ a set of completely random data points and from it identify a trend:


rand.PNG

The big problem that comes out of that is we end up w/ random meaningless processes getting presented as some kind of crisis that we need to raise taxes over.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The discussion is about SCIENCE -- Creation -- and religion. How do you define science, first of all? One definition of science: (yes, I know there are different "branches" of science, but looking for a broad definition):
Science: "The systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained:"
If possible, limit discussion to the definition of SCIENCE before striking out to other areas.
Hmm.

Let me try this as a first draft:

Science is the systematic, principled and rigorous attempt, maximizing objectivity, to explore, describe and if possible explain the entities, states of affairs and phenomena found in reality.

('Reality' means objective reality, the world external to the self, which we know about through our senses.)
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
What a lot of folks don't know is that it's possible to start w/ a set of completely random data points and from it identify a trend:


View attachment 81638
The big problem that comes out of that is we end up w/ random meaningless processes getting presented as some kind of crisis that we need to raise taxes over.
What is interesting is that dice and cards, are often used in education, to help explain statistical principles. But dice and cards are man made objects that are not natural. Dice do not grow in trees but are found in factories. A fixed sided dice with all sides weighed the same, differing by a facade that has no affect on the outcome, is not how nature does it. The Hydrogen atom has many electron energy levels, with each weighed differently, so the outcome is predetermined by the weight, ie., energy level. That is not a good dice, but rather it is how nature does it.

Casino science may be useful in a factory setting, dealing man made things. But it cannot be trusted to model natural things which are not designed like cards or dice. Life could not exist if it was based on random events. It needs to be reliable and predictable.

The graph above is subjective and is often plotted that way, because of the easy math function to model the curve. I would have drawn the curve to looked more like a bird head and shoulders, with the beak on the far top right. This would be harder curve to model with math, but it stays closer to the data; less fuzzy on the dice. I will call it the bird theory.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
For some sciences there is conjecture and for real no verification beyond human reasoning and conjecture.

What a lot of folks don't know is that it's possible to start w/ a set of completely random data points and from it identify a trend:


View attachment 81638
The big problem that comes out of that is we end up w/ random meaningless processes getting presented as some kind of crisis that we need to raise taxes over.
Of course, the part that you’re missing is the statistical significance. (The bane of many young scientists, who have to crunch numbers at the end of doing experiments). Your graph, with 26 data points showing such a wide range of variation, cannot be formed into that curve with any degree of statistical significance. With a few hundred more study points, you might start to see a pattern forming.

By your last statement, you seem to have some political chip on your shoulder. Care to elaborate In another thread?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Hmm.

Let me try this as a first draft:

Science is the systematic, principled and rigorous attempt, maximizing objectivity, to explore, describe and if possible explain the entities, states of affairs and phenomena found in reality.

('Reality' means objective reality, the world external to the self, which we know about through our senses.)
Actually, that's not science, it's the philosophy of materialism falsely coopting science to support it's own agenda.

Science is a process for determining viable possibilities from inviable possibilities via rigorous physical experimentation. "Objectivity" is an ideal that belongs to materialist philosophy. Not science. So is collecting 'evidence' in the pursuit of some proposed truth.

Sadly, this nonsense has become widespread among those seeking to further that philosophical agenda.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
There are studies/hard numbers that show the increase in intelligence with each generation, the Flynn Effect is one example. Your wondering is your choice.
There are reasons for this, better living conditions, more time for education, better health, more access to knowledge, accumulating knowledge that allows brain development.

Brains are not like a VCR where they are able to perform right out of the box. Brains are dependent on the environment for proper growth. The more stimulation at an early age the better the brain will build neural networks that use more of the brain.

I wonder about testing as well. One IQ test I took in high school asked: Who wrote Faust? which I happened to know was originally a play but also an opera, and I asked the tester to clarify which one, and apparently that was an answer because they wrote down that as an answer. I wondered how many high school students would have known that one arbitrary set of facts. It seemed unfair to me as a question, not indicative of intelligence.
Fine, you have not decided. At the same time you sound absolutely convinced that you personally will not "ignore these people exist and influence society in numerous ways that have very negative consequences." Close enough.

It's been fun, thanks for the convo.
I don't understand why this is contentious. We observe conservatives showing contempt for science in numerous areas for their personal reasons.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
My point exactly. As I said, a misinformed person might think that they have collected “evidence”, and therefore performed science well, and proven the existence of God. All since their definition of ‘evidence‘ is wrong.
Being science is about the physical and natural world, how could a god, which IMO wouldn't be either physical or natural be proven through science?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
My point exactly. As I said, a misinformed person might think that they have collected “evidence”, and therefore performed science well, and proven the existence of God. All since their definition of ‘evidence‘ is wrong.
I see believers trying to compare their "evidence" for God to what science collects as data, and what believers don't realize is that science has to account for all the data they collect, even the data that goes against the hypothesis. There is often anomalies in data, which is why more data collection means more reliable trends. @Pete in Panama 's post 70 shows an example of random data that has no pattern, much of it would be anomalies. That data could indicate a poor sample size, or a bad pool of data. To believers they have no interest in evidence that suggests their belief is flawed, or that other options exist, so their approach is highly biased for a conclusion: that their belief is correct.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Of course, the part that you’re missing is the statistical significance. (The bane of many young scientists, who have to crunch numbers at the end of doing experiments). Your graph, with 26 data points showing such a wide range of variation, cannot be formed into that curve with any degree of statistical significance. With a few hundred more study points, you might start to see a pattern forming.

By your last statement, you seem to have some political chip on your shoulder. Care to elaborate In another thread?
I am merely an observer, but many people need help possibly through no fault of their own -- yet how much money is spent on exploring outer space?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
We may be drifting apart here, I thought we were talking about word definitions --linguistics. The various definitions of the word "science" could be useful even while ignoring the minutia of the various scientific disciplines.
ok. I am basically centering on the idea of testing theories right now. No, I'm not drifting apart with my next comment, but wonder how some people might figure the earth is flat. I think they're called "flat-earthers," not sure.
 
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