How do you detect "design"?

[Pogo]

Check history and see that the Roman armies destroyed unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70 and earlier using the Babylonians.
The UN is the 8th king of Revelation 17:11,17
I like that you say ' hurry up ' because Habakkuk 2:3 says it will Not be late ( No 20 year waiting )
We are at the 'final phase', so to speak of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 with the international work Jesus mentioned
Thus, we are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation' as found at Matthew 25:31-34,37

These don't address the primary question of existence of this god and his ability to effect these actions.
Not to mention that Christians have been predicting this end time for ~2000 years and we are still here.
There is another story about a little boy who cried wolf that I have heard as well.

 

[Copernicus]

Check history and see that the Roman armies destroyed unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70 and earlier using the Babylonians.

I checked history and could not find any mention of Roman armies ever using the Babylonians to destroy anything.

The UN is the 8th king of Revelation 17:11,17

Or not.

I like that you say ' hurry up ' because Habakkuk 2:3 says it will Not be late ( No 20 year waiting )

Or maybe Habakkuk thought the event would be in his lifetime.

We are at the 'final phase', so to speak of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 with the international work Jesus mentioned

Or maybe the author of Matthew was mistaken about being in the 'final phase'.

Thus, we are nearing the soon coming ' time of separation' as found at Matthew 25:31-34,37

Or maybe that was also a mistake.

My paternal grandparents were Jehovah's Witnesses in the early 20th century, when the Watch Tower Society predicted that the world would end (Armageddon) in 1914. The beginning of WWI gave them hope. Later on, they predicted the completion of Armageddon by 1975 (6,000 years after when they thought man was created). They were just as confident about the biblical predictions then as you are now and just as wrong.

ETA: My grandfather died earlier than he should have because he couldn't allow doctors to give him blood transfusions. By that time, he had given up hope of seeing Armageddon, but he still clung to his beliefs. He died in the 1960s.

See: Unfulfilled Watch Tower Society Predictions

 

[Pogo]

How then do you account for your use of the pronoun "I"?


If you have a preferred alternative, by all means state it.


By 'world' you mean 'universe', I take it? Yes, it appears so far that we have things in common with distant objects and phenomena, and we set out to explore, describe and explain them.

But those connections are all in the brain. In this context, the universe is divided into two parts: self, and everything else.

How do you see it otherwise?


That's never been my sense of it. The fact that water is still H2O out in the asteroid belt, or in the atmosphere of a planet in another solar system, doesn't mean more than that.


We are not apart from the world, even before we're born, in the sense that it provides us with air, water, food, shelter, society. But in each case a single "I" is aware of this ─ self, and everything else.


So what? Evolution has produced a result that works in practice.


We always knew how to breed, long before we were homo sap.

Solipsism is such a useful philosophy don't you think?

 

[Pogo]

I checked history and could not find any mention of Roman armies ever using the Babylonians to destroy anything.



Or not.



Or maybe Habakkuk thought the event would be in his lifetime.



Or maybe the author of Matthew was mistaken about being in the 'final phase'.



Or maybe that was also a mistake.

My paternal grandparents were Jehovah's Witnesses in the early 20th century, when the Watchtower Society predicted that the world would end (Armageddon) in 1914. The beginning of WWI gave them hope. Later on, they predicted the completion of Armageddon by 1975 (6,000 years after when they thought man was created). They were just as confident about the biblical predictions then as you are now and just as wrong.

But it is logically possible that he is right and we are wrong and pigs might grow wings and fly to the moon.

 

[firedragon]

You claimed you can provide the math.

I didn't say "I will provide the mat". That's a strawman. I said I can give you the material.

I think now you just wanna debate something else. So I don't wish to engage with that type of people.

Have a good day.

 

[firedragon]

This was in response to, "You can't determine a probability without information and then deciding on the nature of this already assumed designer is even less rational."


This is a valid point that needs addressing. Calculating probabilities require actual numbers to plug into equations.

The probabilities are given already. And they were not mine. They were done by qualified physicists. If you go finding the information you will find it. It's there. These are not assumptions or conjecture and general comments like you are making without anything specific.

 

[firedragon]

Thus at least one event of abiogenesis has occurred.

Prove abiogenesis is a fact. Give me the data or the scientists who has proven it and I will read the theory.

You will not find. That's why you are not addressing the question. You are making conjecture it was abiogenesis because you don't want to posit it was biogenesis. You cannot just state your wish and use that as evidence.

The question was for evidence. But of course it's tiring to see people avoid answers and make comments that are either general or conjecture.

Thanks for engaging. I shall leave it there. Cheers.

 

[McBell]

I didn't say "I will provide the mat". That's a strawman. I said I can give you the material.

I think now you just wanna debate something else. So I don't wish to engage with that type of people.

Have a good day.

I am most interested in your definition of "calculated" that does not involve math...

Oh by the way. If you want to see "how they calculated" I can give you the material. No problem.

 

[blü 2]

Check history and see that the Roman armies destroyed unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70 and earlier using the Babylonians.

Has it occurred to you that every purported prophecy in the bible that appears to be successful is overwhelming evidence, not of the prophecy, but of the fact that the "prophecy" was in fact written after the event?

For instance, we can date Mark, the first gospel written, to later than 70 CE because of Mark 13:2.

In fact we can date Mark to at least 75 CE because its author uses Josephus' The Jewish Wars, Bk 6 Ch. 5.3, the chapter on the trial of Jesus of Jerusalem aka Jesus son of Ananus, as the model for his trial of Jesus before Pilate, and Wars wasn't available until 75 CE.

 

[Pogo]

Prove abiogenesis is a fact. Give me the data or the scientists who has proven it and I will read the theory.

You will not find. That's why you are not addressing the question. You are making conjecture it was abiogenesis because you don't want to posit it was biogenesis. You cannot just state your wish and use that as evidence.

The question was for evidence. But of course it's tiring to see people avoid answers and make comments that are either general or conjecture.

Thanks for engaging. I shall leave it there. Cheers.

If you want to claim it was biogenesis, you need to show me the life form that was responsible.
If you now take the unevidenced claim that your God is a living god, then I will just ask where he came from since you claim abiogenesis did not happen and we are back to turtles all the way down.

 

[firedragon]

I am most interested in your definition of "calculated" that does not involve math...

Another strawman. I said "material".

 

[blü 2]

God 'allows' Satan according to the Book of Job - Job 2:3-6
There was No reason for God to back down to Satan's challenge because that would make Satan look like the victor, that Satan was right
Satan challenges all of us: loose physical health (skin for skin) strike our flesh.... (our physical health) and we would Not serve God

Yes, Adam had knowledge about the evil because God educated Adam at Genesis 2:17
All Adam had to do was step on a bug and see what death is. Surely Adam did Not hide that from Eve.
Eve knew (Gen. 3:3) she would die but Satan deceived Eve that she would Not die - Gen. 3:4 (Gen. 3:5, 3:22)
Eve thought she could choose for herself what was good or what was bad, kind of like Eve being her own goddess
However, Adam was Not deceived according to - 1st Timothy 2:14; Romans 5:12
By Adam breaking the Law in effect Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands and put the Law into MAN's hands
Adam set up People Rule as the 'good' instead of God Rule as the 'good '
Mankind's long history shows MAN has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9

If your morals are such that you find nothing objectionable about tormenting an ordinary decent man by destroying his life and murdering his family, simply for a bet, then I fear that's your problem, not mine.

 

[blü 2]

Solipsism is such a useful philosophy don't you think?

I tried it, but very early I stumbled over the "breathing air" part.

 

[McBell]

Another strawman. I said "material".

Your blatant dishonesty is duly noted.

Have a nice day

 

[firedragon]

If you want to claim it was biogenesis

Strawman. I didn't claim it. I asked you the question. The burden of proof is on you. Just tell the truth that there is no evidence and one could have a fruitful conversation. This type of fallacies show there is no intention of that whatsoever. This is the internet. Anonymous. You are not gonna lose your neighborhood reputation for anything that happens here. So you can be honest.

Seriously man. I don't like to discuss with people like this. Ciao.

 

[McBell]

Strawman. I didn't claim it. I asked you the question.

Strawman.
No one claimed you claimed it.

 

[firedragon]

Your blatant dishonesty is duly noted.

Adhominem does not mean anything.

First you said "math" when I said "material". Then you made another word up "calculate". You made them both up. Now you speak of honesty? Hilarious mate. Simply hilarious.

There are plenty of material if you look for them rather than keep making strawman after strawman. Your effort is wasted in unneeded work. Rather, try and find some material to read up. Here is one - Carr and Rees, “The Anthropic Principle and the Structure of the Physical World.”

 

[Pogo]

Strawman. I didn't claim it. I asked you the question. The burden of proof is on you. Just tell the truth that there is no evidence and one could have a fruitful conversation. This type of fallacies show there is no intention of that whatsoever. This is the internet. Anonymous. You are not gonna lose your neighborhood reputation for anything that happens here. So you can be honest.

Seriously man. I don't like to discuss with people like this. Ciao.

What in my evidence do you disagree with or do you just not know what abiogenesis is?

 

[McBell]

Adhominem does not mean anything.

First you said "math" when I said "material". Then you made another word up "calculate". You made them both up. Now you speak of honesty? Hilarious mate. Simply hilarious.

There are plenty of material if you look for them rather than keep making strawman after strawman. Your effort is wasted in unneeded work. Rather, try and find some material to read up. Here is one - Carr and Rees, “The Anthropic Principle and the Structure of the Physical World.”

Sad really.
I mean, I even presented the quote where you said:

"If you want to see "how they calculated" I can give you the material. No problem."​

​

So as everyone can plainly see, I did not "made another word up "calculate"".

So this is nothing more than you dishonestly doubling down on your dishonesty.

Like I said, sad

 

[firedragon]

Strawman.
No one claimed you claimed it.

Cute. Very.

I was talking about probabilities mate. Give me the probability for abiogenesis. At least. Try, If you wish to read on the absurd probabilities of abiogenesis, you could start here. "Kasting, James F., and C. G. Walker. “Limits on Oxygen Concentration in the Prebiological Atmosphere and the Rate of Abiotic Fixation of Nitrogen.” Journal of Geophysical Research 86 (1981): 1147–56."

Of course you are not interested. You believe in magic that life simply came into being randomly. Like a rabbit out of a hat. Not by design. So that's a wish, not at least an explanation based on probability which shows the case for design.