How do you detect "design"?

[Astrophile]

Long before the World Turtle idea the Bible already taught the Earth hangs upon nothing as found at Job 26:10

The 'suspending the Earth upon nothing' is designed that way by the Creator
The Creator needs No designer to design the Creator
Jesus believed his God is THE Creator - Rev. 4:11
The Creator has No beginning, No starting point - Psalm 90:2

The book of Job was written between the 7th and the 4th centuries BC; the statement that the Earth hangs upon nothing may have been derived from the cosmology of Anaximander (ca. 610-546 BC) - see Anaximander - Wikipedia and Carlo Rovelli's book Anaximander.

 

[Astrophile]

Sure. You could start with Carr and Rees, “The Anthropic Principle and the Structure of the Physical World.” I am sure you could find it on the internet. Directly relevant to what I said.

I can only find the abstract of the paper, which is not informative. However, according to Martin Rees - Wikipedia , Martin Rees (one of the authors of the paper) is an atheist, so it looks as if he does not regard the anthropic principle and the structure of the physical world as convincing evidence of a god.

 

[firedragon]

I can only find the abstract of the paper, which is not informative. However, according to Martin Rees - Wikipedia , Martin Rees (one of the authors of the paper) is an atheist, so it looks as if he does not regard the anthropic principle and the structure of the physical world as convincing evidence of a god.

Who spoke of God? That's irrelevant.

The question was on design. Martin Rees is only one of the physicists who makes one statement that adds to a whole thesis of the lack of probability for a world that came up randomly. You should never think that just because one physicist is an atheist he will stop speaking the truth. These people are making calculations of probabilities. Not necessarily making a case for God.

Don't worry about a paper. Read another book. Let me give you now. He is also an atheist. One of the greatest physicist of the century. Roger Penrose.

 

[Valjean]

An absurd assertion. You don't seem to understand what was said whatsoever.

OK, explain it then. As I see it, the fact that there is life on a previously lifeless planet places the probability at 100%.
The fact of abiogenesis is not in question. "How" is the question.

The probability of randomness vs design was the question. Not if life came to exist. Honestly, that was the most nonsensical argument I have ever seen in my entire life.

What, exactly, do you mean by "randomness? What part of abiogenesis are you calling random?
Q: What knowledge of biology do you have? Have you read any of the research on the subject, or am I speaking to a complete tyro?

Yep. I believe God exists. But the discussion is not "does God exist". So that's just a red herring. If you do not understand the word "relevance", you cannot be helped.

I thought we were discussing mechanism, and that you were advocating the Goddidit proposal.
So what are we discussing?

Yeah. This is your missionary training mate. Cliche. And nope. I don't believe in all of these things. But YOU seem to believe in a non-evidenced thing. Abiogenesis. If your so called "evidence" is "empirical" and that's your epistemology, please do provide evidence for Abiogenesis and randomness.

Missionary training? Do you mean a basic education in biology?
No, it's you who believe in a non-evidenced thing. You ask for evidence. Just google abiogenesis or chemical evolution.
We've already posted evidence, and I don't have time to write you a textbook.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The probability of randomness vs design was the question.

Ow, so it's just a false dichotomy based on a strawman then?

btw: how do you calculate the probability of an unknown process?

Calculating the probability of a "random" process would already be difficult enough to do succesfully.... how do you plan on doing that when the process isn't even known?

Same goes for "design" btw.

Yep. I believe God exists. But the discussion is not "does God exist".

Errr.... it is, if you wish to propose said god as a plausible answer to this question.

Yeah. This is your missionary training mate. Cliche. And nope. I don't believe in all of these things.

Why not?

But YOU seem to believe in a non-evidenced thing. Abiogenesis. If your so called "evidence" is "empirical" and that's your epistemology, please do provide evidence for Abiogenesis and randomness.

Abiogenesis isn't claimed to be any more "random" then any other chemical reaction.

Abiogenesis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Abiogenesis | Definition, Experiment & Theory - Lesson | Study.com

Discover the history of the Abiogenesis Theory. Read about the discoveries and experiments that support Abiogenesis and explain the origin of life...

study.com

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

By the way, I already know who Roger Penrose is and I know that a lot of people misrepresent his works.

Yep. And 'lo and behold, case in point:

Because he says the odds of randomness is one part of 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123.

 

[firedragon]

OK, explain it then. As I see it, the fact that there is life on a previously lifeless planet places the probability at 100%.
The fact of abiogenesis is not in question. "How" is the question.

That does not make sense.

Anyway, give me a phycisist or a biologists or a mathematician who makes this argument?

Thanks.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....................................On the other hand, if God's complexity doesn't need to be designed by a God-creator, then the complexity we find in the physical universe doesn't have to be designed either. The ordered complexity we observe in the universe must have arisen by other means. That's where chaos theory becomes relevant to the discussion, because chaos theory explains how ordered patterns emerge from chaotic churning of so-called quantum foam. We don't really need gods to explain how complex patterns arise naturally.

In Scripture God is Creator (Rev. 4:11)
' quantum foam ' is new to me
In Scripture when God sends forth His spirit things happen (Psalm 104:30)
In other words, God uses His Power, His Strength aka His Dynamic Energy to create the invisible and visible - Isaiah 40:26
Thus to me, that is why we have complex patterns arising

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I checked history and could not find any mention of Roman armies ever using the Babylonians to destroy anything.
Or not.
Or maybe Habakkuk thought the event would be in his lifetime.
Or maybe the author of Matthew was mistaken about being in the 'final phase'.
Or maybe that was also a mistake.
My paternal grandparents were Jehovah's Witnesses in the early 20th century, when the Watch Tower Society predicted that the world would end (Armageddon) in 1914. The beginning of WWI gave them hope. Later on, they predicted the completion of Armageddon by 1975 (6,000 years after when they thought man was created). They were just as confident about the biblical predictions then as you are now and just as wrong.
ETA: My grandfather died earlier than he should have because he couldn't allow doctors to give him blood transfusions. By that time, he had given up hope of seeing Armageddon, but he still clung to his beliefs. He died in the 1960s.

Right, the Roman armies did Not use Babylon but God did
God used the Roman armies to destroy unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70
God used the Babylonian forces under Cyrus in 539 BCE
I don't see how Matt. 24:14; Acts 1:8 is mistaken because the international work is now done on a global scale
What ended in 1914 was peace on earth (WWI then WWII) the 'start' of the global pangs of distress - Matt. 24:7-8
Matthew 24 has both a minor and a major fulfillment and so does Luke 21 - Luke 21:11
The 'final signal', so to speak, is still ahead of us as found at 1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
As Proverbs 4:18 brings out that spiritual light would be gradual. Understanding improves over time - Daniel 12:4,9
What was thought in the past does Not make the Bible as wrong, just the understanding at that time.

So sorry to read of the long loss of your grandparents. May our Heavenly Father bring comfort to you
How many people die after getting a transfusion ______ Did doctors use non-blood management or refuse to do so ______
Biblical reason can be found at www.jw.org under 'Medical Information for Clinicians' (Acts 15:20,29; Lev. 17:10-12; Genesis 9:4 B)
We know your grandparents will be awakened from death's deep sleep because they will hear Jesus' voice to awaken them just as Jesus had resurrected people while on earth back to happy and healthy life - John 11:43; John 6:40,44

 

[URAVIP2ME]

my bad, the Hindu World Turtle only predates Genesis by 5 centuries or so, but Job is a thousand years later than the World Turtle.
And while it may not hang on anything, it rests on pillars. 1 Samuel 2:8,
The Bible is not a science book any more than a stopped clock tells time because it is right twice a day.

Genesis says in the beginning - was Hindu World Turtle before the beginning

1st Sam.1:8 corresponds to Psalm 102:25. the pillars of the earth/ the support is: earth's foundation - Psalm 104:5 - which supports creation
God set the world (us) upon the foundation aka land - Psalm 148:3-6

Stopped clock I suppose can always be '6:33 a.m. or p.m.' because Christians seek first God's kingdom (thy kingdom come......) Matt. 6:33

 

[Pogo]

Genesis says in the beginning - was Hindu World Turtle before the beginning

1st Sam.1:8 corresponds to Psalm 102:25. the pillars of the earth/ the support is: earth's foundation - Psalm 104:5 - which supports creation
God set the world (us) upon the foundation aka land - Psalm 148:3-6

Stopped clock I suppose can always be '6:33 a.m. or p.m.' because Christians seek first God's kingdom (thy kingdom come......) Matt. 6:33

Who knows, but they wrote their beginning story down long before Genesis was written and pretty much every culture has its origin story.
You disregard all of them except one as unevidenced and false, I just disregard one more.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If your morals are such that you find nothing objectionable about tormenting an ordinary decent man by destroying his life and murdering his family, simply for a bet, then I fear that's your problem, not mine.

Yes, what wicked 'Satan did' to Job is objectionable and was God's problem and He solved it - Job 42:7-17
Besides the 10 children lost Mr.& Mrs. Job had 10 more. This means in the resurrection they will have 20 children

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Who knows, but they wrote their beginning story down long before Genesis was written and pretty much every culture has its origin story.
You disregard all of them except one as unevidenced and false, I just disregard one more.

Were you on Noah's Ark ? Moses could have easily learned from what Noah had on the Ark - Genesis 5:1 - Book of the generations of Adam

 

[Pogo]

Were you on Noah's Ark ? Moses could have easily learned from what Noah had on the Ark - Genesis 5:1 - Book of the generations of Adam

No, neither was anybody else since because we have all of these other origin stories, several that predate, there never was a global flood as nobody else noticed it and there is no flood layer.
The book is a fair collection of moral stories, but it ain't science and it ain't history, it is what it is.

 

[Copernicus]

Right, the Roman armies did Not use Babylon but God did
God used the Roman armies to destroy unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70

It is true that many believed Emperor Vespasian to be a god. I'll grant you that.

God used the Babylonian forces under Cyrus in 539 BCE

I don't think that they considered him a god, but his religion may have inspired his new Hebrew-speaking subjects to abandon polytheism for monotheism.

I don't see how Matt. 24:14; Acts 1:8 is mistaken because the international work is now done on a global scale
What ended in 1914 was peace on earth (WWI then WWII) the 'start' of the global pangs of distress - Matt. 24:7-8
Matthew 24 has both a minor and a major fulfillment and so does Luke 21 - Luke 21:11
The 'final signal', so to speak, is still ahead of us as found at 1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
As Proverbs 4:18 brings out that spiritual light would be gradual. Understanding improves over time - Daniel 12:4,9
What was thought in the past does Not make the Bible as wrong, just the understanding at that time.

Those who were writing at the time were likely just writing about what they thought would happen in their lifetimes. Over the course of time, people have interpreted the biblical scripture in very different ways.

So sorry to read of the long loss of your grandparents. May our Heavenly Father bring comfort to you

Thanks for the sentiment, but I've gotten over the loss. My grandfather would certainly have died later anyway, and he didn't live to be disappointed when the prediction of Armageddon didn't come true in 1975. I understand that JWs have learned to be more cautious about making specific predictions of the year it will happen since then. Their track record has seemed to have been a spectacular string of failures that made a lot of people do stupid things in anticipation of the end of the world.

How many people die after getting a transfusion ______ Did doctors use non-blood management or refuse to do so ______
Biblical reason can be found at www.jw.org under 'Medical Information for Clinicians' (Acts 15:20,29; Lev. 17:10-12; Genesis 9:4 B)

I think that a great many more die from not getting blood transfusions when such transfusions would have saved their lives. I don't care what reasons jw.org gives for the boneheadedly stupid restriction. It has caused a lot of unnecessary deaths.

We know your grandparents will be awakened from death's deep sleep because they will hear Jesus' voice to awaken them just as Jesus had resurrected people while on earth back to happy and healthy life - John 11:43; John 6:40,44

No you don't know that, and he's not sleeping. He's dead. There's a difference.

 

[McBell]

That does not make sense.

Anyway, give me a phycisist or a biologists or a mathematician who makes this argument?

Thanks.

Life from non-life is called abiogenesis.
Since there at some point was no life on Earth, then there was life on Earth, means that the "probability" of life coming from non-life is 100%.

Now if you want to try and muddy the waters with a claim that God is life to get around it, then you will need to clarify if life can only come from life.
If so, then what life did God come from.
Turtles all the way down....

 

[blü 2]

Yes, what wicked 'Satan did' to Job is objectionable and was God's problem and He solved it - Job 42:7-17
Besides the 10 children lost Mr.& Mrs. Job had 10 more. This means in the resurrection they will have 20 children

You can't have read the story. God was an active participant in the bet and the murders that followed. As I said, God's morality in the story is repulsive. The 'happy ending' was hardly happy for Job's murdered family, for a start.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...................................................No you don't know that, and he's not sleeping. He's dead. There's a difference.

" There's a difference." Which is _____________________________
To me the dead are sleeping. Just as a sleeping person is Not aware of the passing of time so are the dead not aware of anything.
The world teaches the dead are conscious. The wrong 'afterlife' teaching teaches being more alive after death then before death.
I find both Jesus and the OT both teach the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; John 11:11-14
If the dead were already alive somewhere there would be No point for Jesus to resurrect the dead
Acts 24:15 give me the hope that our grandparents will come back to life from death's deep unconscious sleep-like state
Acts 24:15 uses the 'future tense' that there 'is going to be' a resurrection..... ( KJV says for the just and unjust )
I think your grandparents would like you to be here on Resurrection Day ( aka Jesus' 1000-yr. day ) to welcome them back

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You can't have read the story. God was an active participant in the bet and the murders that followed. As I said, God's morality in the story is repulsive. The 'happy ending' was hardly happy for Job's murdered family, for a start.

The future happy ending is still future
Acts 24:15 says there 'is going to be' (future) a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous (KJV just and unjust )
So, ALL of Job's family will be here to enjoy everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was a sample.

Please post the verses you have in mind that God was an active participant ___________________
It was Satan's morality(?) (or lack of it) that is what is repulsive

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Life from non-life is called abiogenesis.
Since there at some point was no life on Earth, then there was life on Earth, means that the "probability" of life coming from non-life is 100%.
Now if you want to try and muddy the waters with a claim that God is life to get around it, then you will need to clarify if life can only come from life.
If so, then what life did God come from.
Turtles all the way down....

God is from everlasting...... (Psalm 90:2) Being The Creator then God did not have to come from life
The living do Not need a Creator
The word 'father' means: life giver
Since the God of the Bible is also our Heavenly Father ( Aka Life Giver ) then life comes from life
Creator God sends forth His spirit (aka power/strength) to create more life - Isaiah 40:26 ; Psalm 104:30