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How do you know you are not "A.I."?

Acim

Revelation all the time
It rests on truth. Any argument that something follows from something else (e.g., that if you are a bachelor, you are not married; if you are a billionaire, you must have at least a million dollars; etc.) rests first on whether or not the inference is valid. Logic is what allows us to conclude that something does or doesn't follow from something else. That's validity.
However, logic is more general. I can determine that something follows from something else even if that something else isn't true.
The great thing about mathematics is that the "world" or "universe" we are dealing with is entirely and explicitly defined (it is "closed" or constitutes a "closed discourse universe"). If I say that grass is green, it is either true or false depending upon not only what the words "green" an "grass" mean but the extent to which these terms combine to make a statement which corresponds to external reality. This isn't true of statements like 1+1=2 or that division by 0 isn't defined or that a negative number multiplied by another negative number yields a positive number. In mathematics, everything is either true by definition or because it follows from (i.e., "is necessarily true") BECAUSE of definitions.
That 0.999...=1 is true because it follows logically (i.e., "is necessarily true") given that numbers are uniquely defined on the real number line (actually, it is true even if we don't assume irrational numbers exist; it follows from the properties of the set of all rational numbers/fractions). Logic doesn't cease to work because of infinities (although it sometimes becomes less intuitive). As an example, and one involving the power of proof by assumption (proof by contradiction), consider a statement that deals only with the whole numbers: "there is no greatest whole number."
How can I prove that? Well, I assume it is false. This implies that there exists some number n such that there is no whole number greater than n. But given any whole number, adding 1 to it yields another whole number. This means that n + 1 is a whole number. The assumption yields a contradiction, so it must be true that there is no greatest whole number.
Likewise, if I assume that 0.999... is not equal to 1, then there must exist some other number it is equal to which differs from 1. Logically, this means that the number 0.999... differs from the number 1 by some fixed amount. In your assertions that this difference is 0.000...1, either this difference really is fixed, in which case I can show it isn't the actual difference, or it must be allowed to become infinitely small. If it is allowed to become infinitely small, than the difference between 0.999...must be smaller than any possible number, which means there is no difference.
The premises (the assumptions) are simply that numbers have the properties they do (and need not even be an assumption that ALL real numbers do, merely the set of rational numbers/fractions).

I'll get to all this self justification of faith in premises at another time.

If by "faith" you mean truth, sure.

No, I mean assumptions that may be shared via intersubjectivity, but by sound bite terms are actually subjective assumptions.

Every conditional statement ("if x, then y") involves an assumption/premise, e.g., "if you pour a bucket of water on your head, you will get wet". Another way of saying this is "under the assumption that you actually do pour a bucket of water on your head, you will get wet". It isn't faith that makes this statement true so much as it is you actually satisfying the assumption by pouring water on your head (and that you, water, etc., exists, that water is wet, etc.).

You are saying, "it isn't faith that makes the premise statement true, so much" and I am saying it is exactly faith that is making the premise statement "true." The assumptions that follow may be sound reasoning that logic will provide as justification/validity for anyone that doubts the conclusion. The premise rests on faith.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I'll get to all this self justification of faith in premises at another time.



No, I mean assumptions that may be shared via intersubjectivity, but by sound bite terms are actually subjective assumptions.



You are saying, "it isn't faith that makes the premise statement true, so much" and I am saying it is exactly faith that is making the premise statement "true." The assumptions that follow may be sound reasoning that logic will provide as justification/validity for anyone that doubts the conclusion. The premise rests on faith.

If I may. How can faith make a premise true?

Suppose I have faith that garden fairies exist. Does that make garden fairies true?

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
inte

Anyway, I ramble. I do still see .999... as faith proposition. Sorry if that doesn't jibe with anyone reading this. I feel open to considering otherwise, if / when it can be shown to me and stand up to scrutiny, that is really just basic inquiries at this point.

Maybe you it can help if you ask yourself what the difference between 1 and 0.9999.. Is.

So, little execise:

1 - 0.99999... = ?

Ciao

- viole
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
If I may. How can faith make a premise true?

Suppose I have faith that garden fairies exist. Does that make garden fairies true?

Yes, it makes it true for you. Perhaps not only you, but at least you.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Any non-trivial system of logic is either
1) complete, in which case there will be evident paradoxes/inconsistencies/incoherence, or
2) incomplete, in which some assumptions cannot be proved within the system of logic, but is otherwise coherent

Perhaps AI cannot accept paradoxes/inconsistencies/incoherence, whereas biologic intelligence can.

Just speculating, of course
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'll get to all this self justification of faith in premises at another time.

No, I mean assumptions that may be shared via intersubjectivity, but by sound bite terms are actually subjective assumptions.

You are saying, "it isn't faith that makes the premise statement true, so much" and I am saying it is exactly faith that is making the premise statement "true." The assumptions that follow may be sound reasoning that logic will provide as justification/validity for anyone that doubts the conclusion. The premise rests on faith.
Mathematics doesn't require faith.
It is a priori knowledge, ie, based upon definitions rather than experience & subjectivity.
So no faith or subjectivity is needed to say: 0.999...=1
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
None. To divide by 10, I added an extra 0 to the right of the decimal. Didn't you notice that?

Was that extra zero not present in your original .0.....1?

Why not?

Ciao

- viole
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Ok. So which one is bigger? Your original .000001 or the one with the extra 0?

Ciao

- viole

I would say, logically speaking, they are equal. But don't you appreciate the fancy math I did? I added a zero to infinite zeros. I'm special like that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The definitions require faith.
No, they can be merely hypotheses.
But regarding the function of numbers, extensive experience with their usefulness gives confidence thru inductive reasoning, rather than faith.
Btw, "faith", as I use it here, is believing in things unverifiable & unfalsifiable.
 
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