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How do you know you are not "A.I."?

Acim

Revelation all the time
Do you think there's only one definition?

No. I also don't think the definition conveys enough of the actual meaning (for this concept). But I am aware of other denotations for faith, as well as some popular connotations.

The definition inferred would depend upon context.

Yes. Though I think there are primary definitions for words that likely span many (arguably all) contexts.

So to say that math requires "faith" is inappropriate at best

Disagreed. Though because faith is in quotes, it could employ a connotation for faith that would also be inappropriate at best. Like saying, "math" requires faith is factual. Or, what I mean by math is equal to faith, and is factual. All hypothetical for sake of addressing your point.

Instead of accusing others of being disingenuous, you should first consider if you're creating confusion with clumsy use of language.

Instead of thinking I accused you of something, perhaps read the context of where I used that word.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Instead of thinking I accused you of something, perhaps read the context of where I used that word.
When you said....
"IMO, you are limiting what faith actually means and then using that limited (or bastardized) version of faith to say it has nothing to do with premises/assumptions. I find that disingenuous."
....I read an accusation of being disingenuous.
Of course, you could claim to be using unexpected definitions for the words in your posts.

Then that is suggesting logic that relies on faith (in basic algebra).
I only suggest that you apply basic algebra to find the value of x in the equation.
It doesn't require faith.
Just basic math tools.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Nothing divided by something (always) equals nothing? That would seem to be a number dealing with infinity in some fashion.

Yes, a half of zero is zero. A tenth of zero is also zero. What else could it be?

Ergo, the only number that is equal to itself when divided by 10 is zero. This is the only solution to the equation x = x/10. There is no other solution in the set of natural, integer, rational, real and even complex numbers. Believe me. :)

Therefore, your 0.000...1 must be zero, if that solution is uinique

And if 0 = 0.0000...1 = 1 - 0.99999...., then 1 = 0.9999......

Ciao

- viole
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The hypotheses require (some degree of) faith.
Let us assume the starting point Descartes did when trying to show what even one skeptical of any faith or belief must by mere logic alone accept. That is, if we are free to doubt all sensory input and suppose we are under the spell of a magician or (in a more modern context) trapped in the Matrix such that we cannot assume anything we take to be real actually is, what (if anything) might we still be able to assert is necessarily true? Alternatively, is there anything which (even assuming such radical skepticism) that we can't deny?
Descartes and I agree that we must accept at the very least that we cannot logically answer "yes" to the question "is it possible that I myself do not exist?", because I, the one asking the question, must exist in order to answer the question.
With such an approach, faith is required to accept just about anything, and that was Descartes intent.
Numbers, however, present an interesting case. A great (if ignoble and immodest) mathematician by the name of Kronecker once said "Die ganzen Zahlen hat der liebe Gott gemacht, alles andere ist Menschenwerk" or "The whole [entirety of the] numbers has the loving God made, all else is the work of man" (my more literal translation; it is usually translated "God made the integers, all the rest is the work of man"). Stephen Hawking used part of this quote as the title of his book on the history of mathematics. It is, however, almost always misunderstood. Kronecker wasn't saying something profound about God or really about math. He was responding to another great mathematician (Cantor) and those like him. He believed that the only numbers which "exist" are the integers (denoted by the symbol
0b100eeff3848a15dbb46291e7fe52ad.png
for the German "Zahlen"). He was a constructivist, meaning that he believed numbers like pi or anything that wasn't an integer or explicitly constructed out of an integer (e.g., 1/3 is a ratio of two integers). This point of view has almost no supporters today (I have met only one: N J Wildberger) because the advances in mathematics and their use within the sciences (particularly physics) has placed the real numbers and the real number line on a rigorous (logical) footing.
However, a bigger issue is what it means for a number to exist at all. In practice, it is perfectly reasonable to devise all kinds of mathematical entities, number systems, etc., such as Conway's surreals, the p-adic completion of the rationals, the ordinals, etc. And it is perfectly reasonable to say that none of them exist (I believe that most people who aren't philosophers of mathematics or mathematically inclined philosophers hold this position implicitly, while those who are or who are deal with mathematics as physicists like Tegmark and Penrose do implicitly or explicitly assume a Platonic-like reality for mathematical entities).
The issue here, however, need not concern ontology. I need not assert that 0.999... exists or that 1 exists to assert that the two are equal. That's what makes mathematics a special case when it comes to issues like faith in what exists. Just as logic still works even in the radical skepticism of Descartes thought experiment, so too it works if we assume no numbers actually exist. Whatever ontological status numbers may or may not have, they have a logical status.

You have accepted the number 1 it seems, and the number 0.999..., but because you do not take these to be equal you have been forced to posit the existence of a number with illogical properties: a number that is smaller than all other numbers, which would make it smaller than itself and/or a number that when divided by 10 yields the same number but isn't 0. We are here dealing only with logic, not existence.

I am using faith to mean: complete trust or confidence in someone or something (or what my computer's dictionary and I imagine most dictionaries say in conveying the definition of faith)
If your knowledge of philosophical and/or social science literature is sufficiently advanced such that you are familiar with terms like intersubjectivity, surely you are aware that dictionaries are at best guides to usage and do not define words (which are always and everywhere polysemous). The following is from the entry "faith" from the most authoritative and comprehensive dictionary of the English language (for brevity, I have omitted the examples of use from all but first sense, as in each case they date from the 1300s to the 21st century) :

"III. Belief, trust, confidence.

5. Belief in and acceptance of the doctrines of a religion, typically involving belief in a god or gods and in the authenticity of divine revelation. Also (Theol.): the capacity to spiritually apprehend divine truths, or realities beyond the limits of perception or of logical proof, viewed either as a faculty of the human soul, or as the result of divine illumination.
Earlier evidence refers almost exclusively to the Christian religion, divine revelation being viewed as contained either in Holy Scripture or in the teaching of the Church. In this context faith is often considered in relation to justification before God, and contrasted with works. Cf. justifying faith at justifying adj. Special uses.

▸c1384 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) (Royal) (1850) James ii. 17 Feith [L. fides], if it haue not werkes, is deed in it silf.
c1405 (▸c1380) Chaucer Second Nun's Tale (Hengwrt) (2003) l. 64 Feith is deed with outen werkis.
▸c1443 R. Pecock Reule of Crysten Religioun (1987) 425 Feith is a knowingal vertu—þat is to seie such where wiþ we knowen sum treuþe and is þe knowing of þe same trouþ.
▸c1456 R. Pecock Bk. Faith (Trin. Cambr.) (1909) 123 That feith..is thilke kinde or spice of knowyng, which a man gendrith and getith into his undirstonding.
1526 Tyndale Prol. Moses in Wks. 7 Fayth, is the beleuyng of Gods promises, and a sure trust in the goodnes and truth of God, which fayth iustified Abrah.
1581 J. Marbeck Bk. Notes & Common Places 375 Faith..maketh God & man friends.
1651 T. Hobbes Leviathan iii. xlii. 271 Faith is a gift of God, which Man can neither give, nor take away.
1690 J. Locke Ess. Humane Understanding iv. xviii. 348 Faith..is the Assent to any Proposition..upon the Credit of the Proposer, as coming immediately from God, which we call Revelation.
1744 Swift Serm. Trinity 52 Faith is an entire Dependence upon the Truth, the Power, the Justice, and the mercy of God.
1781 W. Cowper Expostulation 111 Faith, the root whence only can arise The graces of a life that wins the skies.
1835 Wordsworth Russ. Fugitive ii. xi, in Yarrow Revisited 132 That monumental grace Of Faith, which doth all passions tame That Reason should control.
1869 E. M. Goulburn Pursuit of Holiness iii. 21 Faith..the faculty by which we realize unseen things.
1921 A. Myerson Found. Personality ix. 167 Faith is really a transcendent Hope, renewing the feeling of energy.
1949 H. A. R. Gibb Mohammedanism vii. 113 They [sc. the Mu'tazilite movement] stressed the responsibility of the Believer as against the..emphasis on the sufficiency of faith, irrespective of ‘works’.
1951 W. Lewis Rotting Hill i. 4 Did it [sc. the decline of religion] rage beneath the surplice and eat away the roots of faith?
2002 Independent 7 Aug. 14/3 His refusal to ignore modern thought..led to his own crisis of faith.
2011 F. M. Jensen Study of Found. Justif. ix. 90 Faith is the instrument by which we are linked to Christ.

6.
a. A system of religious belief. Freq. with modifying word, as Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.
...

b. the faith (also the Faith): that system of religious belief which is regarded as true and correct; the true religion; spec. (esp. in earlier use) Christianity, or a particular branch of it. Also in extended use denoting non-religious beliefs (cf. sense A. 6d). Cf. defender of the faith at defender n. 2b. Sometimes without the in early use and in certain fixed phrases, as of faith: part and parcel of the faith. See also contrary to faith at Phrases 4a, Confession of Faith at confession n. 7a.
...
c. That which is believed, or required to be believed, on a particular subject; a belief. Also in pl.: points of faith, tenets. Cf. article of faith at article n. Phrases 1a. Now somewhat rare."


If we assume logic is not employing any sense of trust in its ability to reason and its conclusions, what number(s) can possibly be equal to themselves when divided by 10?
Why would we assume that? Logic is the ability to trust in one's reasoning (or rather, it is trustful/proper reasoning).
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
When you said....
"IMO, you are limiting what faith actually means and then using that limited (or bastardized) version of faith to say it has nothing to do with premises/assumptions. I find that disingenuous."
....I read an accusation of being disingenuous.
Of course, you could claim to be using unexpected definitions for the words in your posts.

I find the limiting (of faith's meaning) and then using that limited version of faith to disassociate with premises/assumptions to be disingenuous. In other words, I'm addressing, or characterizing that idea.

I only suggest that you apply basic algebra to find the value of x in the equation.
It doesn't require faith.
Just basic math tools.

It requires trust/faith in the right tool (math).
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Yes, a half of zero is zero. A tenth of zero is also zero. What else could it be?

Ergo, the only number that is equal to itself when divided by 10 is zero. This is the only solution to the equation x = x/10. There is no other solution in the set of natural, integer, rational, real and even complex numbers. Believe me. :)

It could also be numbers that deal with infinity in some fashion.

Therefore, your 0.000...1 must be zero, if that solution is uinique

I see it as a non-sequitur. You asked what else it could be, concluded it can't be anything else.

And if 0 = 0.0000...1 = 1 - 0.99999...., then 1 = 0.9999......

1 - .999... = .000...1 (or one number dealing with infinity subtracted from one would logically be another number dealing with infinity to offset the plausible difference).
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
The issue here, however, need not concern ontology. I need not assert that 0.999... exists or that 1 exists to assert that the two are equal.

I would say you are implicitly saying they exist (as mental construct) to then assert the two are (allegedly) equal.

That's what makes mathematics a special case when it comes to issues like faith in what exists. Just as logic still works even in the radical skepticism of Descartes thought experiment, so too it works if we assume no numbers actually exist. Whatever ontological status numbers may or may not have, they have a logical status.

Yes, that logical status relies on faith. In some ways, you are making a case for numbers to be 'supernatural' though you used the words of 'a special case.'

You have accepted the number 1 it seems, and the number 0.999..., but because you do not take these to be equal you have been forced to posit the existence of a number with illogical properties: a number that is smaller than all other numbers, which would make it smaller than itself and/or a number that when divided by 10 yields the same number but isn't 0. We are here dealing only with logic, not existence.

To me, 000...1 is as logical as .999...
You, or anyone else, has not shown (me) otherwise.
I accept that you have faith in their equality.

If your knowledge of philosophical and/or social science literature is sufficiently advanced such that you are familiar with terms like intersubjectivity, surely you are aware that dictionaries are at best guides to usage and do not define words (which are always and everywhere polysemous). The following is from the entry "faith" from the most authoritative and comprehensive dictionary of the English language (for brevity, I have omitted the examples of use from all but first sense, as in each case they date from the 1300s to the 21st century) :

"III. Belief, trust, confidence.

5. Belief in and acceptance of the doctrines of a religion, typically involving belief in a god or gods and in the authenticity of divine revelation. Also (Theol.): the capacity to spiritually apprehend divine truths, or realities beyond the limits of perception or of logical proof, viewed either as a faculty of the human soul, or as the result of divine illumination.
Earlier evidence refers almost exclusively to the Christian religion, divine revelation being viewed as contained either in Holy Scripture or in the teaching of the Church. In this context faith is often considered in relation to justification before God, and contrasted with works.

So, you're asserting that faith is only denoted as a reference to 'belief in a god or gods?' Is that what I'm to take from this appeal to authority?

Why would we assume that? Logic is the ability to trust in one's reasoning (or rather, it is trustful/proper reasoning).

Thank you. Please direct this inquiry to @viole

I agree that logic is the ability to trust in one's reasoning. I see trust and faith as essentially synonymous. Like your dictionary definition provided.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I find the limiting (of faith's meaning) and then using that limited version of faith to disassociate with premises/assumptions to be disingenuous. In other words, I'm addressing, or characterizing that idea.
Ideas cannot be disingenuous.
it's a trait of someone expressing ideas.
In other words, it's a personal insult, & a baseless one at that.
It requires trust/faith in the right tool (math).
It also requires some knowledge of math.
Given yours, you should be more generous towards others.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, that logical status relies on faith. In some ways, you are making a case for numbers to be 'supernatural' though you used the words of 'a special case.'
They aren't supernatural. They simply aren't physical. In some cases, this makes mathematics much, much more restrictive in terms of what can or can't happen than in the real world. The same is true of logic. It makes perfect sense from a linguistic or similar perspective to say "If you are hungry, there's food on the table" but logically this is the same as saying "if there's no food on the table, then you are not hungry." The real worlds is full of ambiguities and can be, while in mathematics things must be much more precise. In this sense, its reality that's supernatural filled with vague concepts, statements that have no truth-values, different things somehow identical, etc.

One way to see how this is true is to examine computers and calculators. They understand nothing. They are quite literally physical instantiations of Boolean logic: they operate using physical manipulations of physical realizations of evaluations of mathematical statements with binary truth values. Facial recognition is so difficult for computers because they can't generalize, tolerate ambiguity, or calculate from imprecision. We can not only recognize the same face easily from different angles under different lighting, but recognize faces as faces despite vast differences.
Concepts like "tree", "bush", "house", etc., allow us to identify and speak about vastly different objects as somehow belonging to the same "set", but set theory doesn't allow any such ambiguities or imprecisions.

This is why it is so difficult both to understand how we (and other animals) can process concepts as well as why it is so difficult to get computers to even simulate this kind of understanding. Computers follow mathematically precise procedures, and we live in a supernatural world irreducible to the precision and clarity of logic and mathematics.


To me, 000...1 is as logical as .999...
Quite so. The difference is that you don't seem to understand how these two numbers differ. For the number 0.000...1, the ellipses (the "...") stand for a finite number of zeros before the last digit (namely, 1) in the number. For .999..., the ellipses stand for an infinite number of 9's. No matter how small the number 0.000...1 is (i.e., no matter how many 0's we'd have to put in if we wrote out the number without the ellipses), the fact that there is a last digit one ensures the number is greater than 0. There is NO number small enough such that 1- 0.999.. equals that number.
So yes, both numbers are entirely logical, as are their arithmetic, place in the number line, etc. The problem is that you seem to understand the number with a final decimal but not the one without any final decimal.
You, or anyone else, has not shown (me) otherwise.
The great thing about logic is that it is universal. The bad thing about it is that understanding it in more than a very basic way is rare. You have actually provided an argument yourself that demonstrates informally that 0.999... equals 1, but don't seem to be able to follow the logic. As in What the Tortoise Said to Achilles, I cannot force you to follow the logic or show you what logically follows.

I accept that you have faith in their equality.
Do you have faith that 1=1? Why?


So, you're asserting that faith is only denoted as a reference to 'belief in a god or gods?' Is that what I'm to take from this appeal to authority?
No, I didn't quote the entire entry. That was the senses falling under definition III. As I said, words are polysemous.

I agree that logic is the ability to trust in one's reasoning.
Not really, I put that badly. More that it is the tool that, if used to reason, can be trusted to lead to valid conclusions. Put simply, logic allows us to determine what follows from what.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Quite so. The difference is that you don't seem to understand how these two numbers differ. For the number 0.000...1, the ellipses (the "...") stand for a finite number of zeros before the last digit (namely, 1) in the number.

For me, it is an infinite number of zeros, with a 1 that is in there only to make up the logical assertion of .999... with infinite nines and how that is different from 1. Both sets of infinite decimals strike as illogical, unverifiable.

For .999..., the ellipses stand for an infinite number of 9's. No matter how small the number 0.000...1 is (i.e., no matter how many 0's we'd have to put in if we wrote out the number without the ellipses), the fact that there is a last digit one ensures the number is greater than 0. There is NO number small enough such that 1- 0.999.. equals that number.

Sure there is, I just told you what it is.

So yes, both numbers are entirely logical, as are their arithmetic, place in the number line, etc. The problem is that you seem to understand the number with a final decimal but not the one without any final decimal.

Actually, I don't think either number is understandable. I don't have faith that either one is actually a number. But I like to pretend I do like the people who claim .999... is understandable and understandably is equal to 1, but can't really show how that is except in ways that make sense to them. Kinda how I like to think .000...1 makes sense as the difference between .999... and 1.

The great thing about logic is that it is universal. The bad thing about it is that understanding it in more than a very basic way is rare. You have actually provided an argument yourself that demonstrates informally that 0.999... equals 1, but don't seem to be able to follow the logic. As in What the Tortoise Said to Achilles, I cannot force you to follow the logic or show you what logically follows.

Reading this tale is for me, like watching a movie with you and you saying, "I don't see why the main character did thus and so." And to which I reply, "that's the only logical way it could be done! It's infallible what the writer came up with. Don't you see this? You don't? Well, I can't make you see it." To which I would reckon you'd want to sit down perhaps, re-watch the movie, pause at points that you think it could've been written differently, to have the character reply with something other than what was taken by me as 'the only possible way that could have gone!'

Do you have faith that 1=1? Why?

Because they appear identical. After having accepting faith in 1 and equals, I use reason to then identify what that could possibly mean. I rationalize that things that appear identical are equal to each other, especially if I can't see any difference, at all, between them.

Like .9 appears different to me than 1
And .99 appears even more different to me than 1
.999... (assuming nines go on forever) appears infinitely unequal to 1. For something that is arguably so close to 1, it actually appears so incredibly vastly different to me from 1. Though I realize that 1 could also be written as 1.000... (assuming zeros go on for ever). That too would be equally illogical representation of 1, but I would rationalize that I could just take away all of them and stick with the number to the left of the decimal point and see how it is really equal to 1. Ya know, seeing that one zero or infinite amount of them equals "nothing."
 
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