How do you view: the Catholic Church

[blackout]

I disapprove of requiring preists to be celibate.

I hardly see why it matters.
It's not a secret after all!
If you don't want to live celibate,
WHY on earth would you want to be a catholic priest?!

We each choose our own path.

It's the fact that the RC claims we NEED
these priests (men) for a FULL experience of God....
it is a man-ipulative belief that keeps many of the masses
from experiencing God in FULLNESS
everywhere... and in all things.

Still people ... individuals CHOOSE their own beliefs...
so (just as with the choice of celabacy)
the institution can hardly be blamed.

On the other hand...
there are some (many?) who would NEVER find God in everything,
so at least He is there...
real for them...
in the eucharist.

Wherever you connect with God,
is a good thing.

 

[Smoke]

Also about the priestly celibacy... it is a necessary gift from god for them to be able to do their works without attachment.

It may have certain advantages (as well as disadvantages), but it's not necessary. Priestly celibacy wasn't required in the Roman Rite until the 11th or 12th century, and is still not required in the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. Even after the papacy began to require sacerdotal celibacy, it was still common for priests and even bishops to marry for hundreds of years, and many of the clergy who didn't marry kept concubines. (It's not always easy to tell the difference, since Rome tended to view an illicit wife as a concubine.)

 

[ChristineES]

I agree with Ultaviolet-- It is a person's choice. No one is forced to be a priest. The Bible doesn't command it but that doesn't mean that it is wrong in their case. Paul did say that there would be some variations on rituals.

 

[*Paul*]

For example you may hear somebody praying to Mary saying "Mary mother of God my love, save me". Now this sounds a bit heretical at first until you understand the context. Sometimes prayer can be very emotional and use love language because we care very much for a person so we speak in certain ways. It's like if you had a depressed wife and she said to you in a love letter. "Oh my sweat Paul my dearest, my savior, who delivered me from my sorrow, take my whole heart and deliver me from death ." Now she is expressing a very deep love for you but she is not worshiping you or even making you equal to God even though she calls you her savior who delivered her from her sorrows.

In your example of my wife she defines what she means, these novenas do not. I understand what you are trying to say here but I disagree that this is meant in a non literal way. This prayer has the imprimatur of the catholic church, there is no caveat with it.

Does it use any more flowery language than this prayer?

O Domina Mea!​

My Queen! my Mother! I give thee all myself; and to show my devotion to thee, I consecrate to thee this day my eyes, ears, mouth, heart, myself wholly and without reserve. Wherefore, O loving Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, defend me, as thy property and thy own possession.
My Queen! my Mother! remember I am thine own.
Keep me, defend mc, as thy property, thy own possession.
Three Ejaculations, Jesus, Mary, Joseph

Our Sovereign Pontiff Pius IX., at the prayer of the Father- General of the Society of Jesus, granted, by a decree of the S. Congr. of Indulgences, of Aug. 5, 1851 -
i. An indulgence of 100 days, to be gained once a day by saying, morning and evening, with contrite heart, one Ave Maria, with the accompanying Prayer and Ejaculation, O Domina mea! &c., for the purpose of imploring the aid of the most holy Virgin in temptations, especially in those against chastity.
ii. A plenary indulgence, once a month, to all who practise this devotion for a month together, on any one day in the month, provided that, after Confession and Communion, they visit a church or public oratory, and pray there according to the mind of his Holiness, he granted also -
iii. An indulgence of forty days, every time any one, when assaulted by any temptation, shall have recourse to the most holy Virgin with nothing more than the ejaculation, O Domina mea! O Mater mea! Memento, &c.

Surely both are meant literally or you could say the same about them all. They all use this "love language" without giving an indication that they don't mean what they are literally saying.

 

[athanasius]

In your example of my wife she defines what she means, these novenas do not. I understand what you are trying to say here but I disagree that this is meant in a non literal way. This prayer has the imprimatur of the catholic church, there is no caveat with it.

Does it use any more flowery language than this prayer?

O Domina Mea!​

My Queen! my Mother! I give thee all myself; and to show my devotion to thee, I consecrate to thee this day my eyes, ears, mouth, heart, myself wholly and without reserve. Wherefore, O loving Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, defend me, as thy property and thy own possession.
My Queen! my Mother! remember I am thine own.
Keep me, defend mc, as thy property, thy own possession.
Three Ejaculations, Jesus, Mary, Joseph

Our Sovereign Pontiff Pius IX., at the prayer of the Father- General of the Society of Jesus, granted, by a decree of the S. Congr. of Indulgences, of Aug. 5, 1851 -
i. An indulgence of 100 days, to be gained once a day by saying, morning and evening, with contrite heart, one Ave Maria, with the accompanying Prayer and Ejaculation, O Domina mea! &c., for the purpose of imploring the aid of the most holy Virgin in temptations, especially in those against chastity.
ii. A plenary indulgence, once a month, to all who practise this devotion for a month together, on any one day in the month, provided that, after Confession and Communion, they visit a church or public oratory, and pray there according to the mind of his Holiness, he granted also -
iii. An indulgence of forty days, every time any one, when assaulted by any temptation, shall have recourse to the most holy Virgin with nothing more than the ejaculation, O Domina mea! O Mater mea! Memento, &c.

Surely both are meant literally or you could say the same about them all. They all use this "love language" without giving an indication that they don't mean what they are literally saying.

Hi Paul my friend. I understand waht you mean. Believe me this one one of my last obstacles I had to deal with and resolve before coming back to the Church. The words used are flowery poetic language but also theological language that relates to her position in scripture and tradition. Perhaps it would be better to ask you which phrase of this prayer bothers you. Then we could look at it from a theological, scriptural, and poetic point of view. By the way I hope are doing good. The readings from Dr Luther you shared with me were great. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you!

 

[*Paul*]

Hi Paul my friend. I understand waht you mean. Believe me this one one of my last obstacles I had to deal with and resolve before coming back to the Church. The words used are flowery poetic language but also theological language that relates to her position in scripture and tradition. Perhaps it would be better to ask you which phrase of this prayer bothers you. Then we could look at it from a theological, scriptural, and poetic point of view. By the way I hope are doing good. The readings from Dr Luther you shared with me were great. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you!

My point in reffering to that prayer was to show that there is no difference in the type language used to our mother of perpetual help, I can see no reason to view the one as devotional love language and the other as deeply theological. But if I had to pick something from it that makes me squirm:

My Queen! my Mother! remember I am thine own.
Keep me, defend mc, as thy property, thy own possession

The bible says, "ye are Christs and Christ is Gods. God is our protector, The LORD is our buckler and shield, The LORD is our help. Ye are bought with a price and ye are not your own." [in other words God bought you witht he blood of Jesus]

Do you think that Mary would take these offerings of devotion that belong to God alone?

So glad you enjoyed that little passage of Dr Luther, I have read on a bit from there and this small work of his has been such a blessing. His fruit lives on.

 

[athanasius]

My point in reffering to that prayer was to show that there is no difference in the type language used to our mother of perpetual help, I can see no reason to view the one as devotional love language and the other as deeply theological. But if I had to pick something from it that makes me squirm:

My Queen! my Mother! remember I am thine own.
Keep me, defend mc, as thy property, thy own possession

The bible says, "ye are Christs and Christ is Gods. God is our protector, The LORD is our buckler and shield, The LORD is our help. Ye are bought with a price and ye are not your own." [in other words God bought you witht he blood of Jesus]

Do you think that Mary would take these offerings of devotion that belong to God alone?

Ok Good point my friend. To begin with you are correct we do give honor and devotion to Mary but we give no sacrifice or offerings(Worship) to her. We do not make her a goddess. In fact a early heresy called Colleridians began to offer sacrifice to Mary and the Pope condemned them. Is the problem your having with the concept of giving other humans devotion or honor or glory? "MY queen My mother remember I am thy own" To us us Catholics this is very biblical indeed. As we believe Mary is truly the fulfillment of the new Queen Mother( a position all Davidic kings had). So she is our New queen and our Mother and we see this in Rev 12:1-17. The prayer speaks like royal love language, asking her to keep us and defend us. Just as the queen Mother in the Old testament interceded on behalf of the people and defended their needs to he king. Part of it is also love language. Just like in poems in English(My wife the English major reminds me of these) or you wife may say to you "Paul keep me, defend me, love me, I am your property I am your own possession." This is love language reflecting devotion to you. In the same way it is love language reflecting devotion/not worship to Mary and a theological truth. I hope that helps my good friend. God bless you!

 

[*Paul*]

Is the problem your having with the concept of giving other humans devotion or honor or glory? "MY queen My mother remember I am thy own" To us us Catholics this is very biblical indeed. As we believe Mary is truly the fulfillment of the new Queen Mother( a position all Davidic kings had). So she is our New queen and our Mother and we see this in Rev 12:1-17. The prayer speaks like royal love language, asking her to keep us and defend us. Just as the queen Mother in the Old testament interceded on behalf of the people and defended their needs to he king. Part of it is also love language. Just like in poems in English(My wife the English major reminds me of these) or you wife may say to you "Paul keep me, defend me, love me, I am your property I am your own possession." This is love language reflecting devotion to you. In the same way it is love language reflecting devotion/not worship to Mary and a theological truth. I hope that helps my good friend. God bless you!

Keep me, defend me, soli deo gloria, these are two of the things that God must do for us, He protects us, He purchased us therefore we are His. This is straight forward apostolic teaching, to utter prayers that are contrary to this is unthinkable, it's like being saved from drowning by a lifeguard and giving thanks to a bystander..

 

[athanasius]

Keep me, defend me, soli deo gloria, these are two of the things that God must do for us, He protects us, He purchased us therefore we are His. This is straight forward apostolic teaching, to utter prayers that are contrary to this is unthinkable, it's like being saved from drowning by a lifeguard and giving thanks to a bystander..

Yes this is applied to God. However this is poetic love language. People in the past have ask there Presidents,Kings, or even Police officers to Keep them or defend them in certain cituations. That doesn't mean that they are worshiping that king or president or police man. The same is true for this prayer. It does not equate Mary with God. I hope that helps. God bless you! Good questions! The key is God does defend us and keep us but he uses People to do that many times.