How Does a Jew Attain Salvation?

[roger1440]

Jar of manna

“Manna” what is it? Each day it rained Manna, but on the six day twice as much was collected, because the 7th day is a day of rest. The “Manna” is important to the understanding of the Exodus. They knew they were fed, but they did not know what they were fed. They knew it sustained them on their journey. They knew whatever it was; it compelled them to move forward. Not one who left Egypt made it to the promise land. It was the next generation who made it to the promise land. God wanted a holy, righteous nation. ALL must be left behind. It is only the righteous that stands before God. This “Manna” is the word of God. Until it is fully digested a person does not know “what it is”.

“He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.” (Deuteronomy 8:3)

Another item in the Ark was the “Manna” or word or God.

 

[rosends]

What are Jews saved from (option #3)

A third possibility is saved from sin.
Without getting all preachy, everyone falls short. The Law offered a solution that can no longer be performed (not since those temple burning Romans). The Bible offers another solution that, from my reading of it, works the same for everyone.

One is not saved FROM sin. One is forgiven for sinning. The law offered solutions which are viable and currently practiced even though the temple was destroyed because the law accounted for situations in which there is no temple. I don't see how there is any need to be "saved". One needs to follow laws. Jews do that. No salvation involved or necessary.

 

[atpollard]

One is not saved FROM sin. One is forgiven for sinning. The law offered solutions which are viable and currently practiced even though the temple was destroyed because the law accounted for situations in which there is no temple. I don't see how there is any need to be "saved". One needs to follow laws. Jews do that. No salvation involved or necessary.

I was careless in my wording.
(Mostly through laziness ... this horse had been beaten to death in this topic.)

The only part that I would stand firm on is that everyone needs to be forgiven since none of us (people, including Jews) keeps G_d's Law perfectly.

 

[atpollard]

“Manna” what is it? Each day it rained Manna, but on the six day twice as much was collected, because the 7th day is a day of rest. The “Manna” is important to the understanding of the Exodus. They knew they were fed, but they did not know what they were fed. They knew it sustained them on their journey. They knew whatever it was; it compelled them to move forward. Not one who left Egypt made it to the promise land. It was the next generation who made it to the promise land. God wanted a holy, righteous nation. ALL must be left behind. It is only the righteous that stands before God. This “Manna” is the word of God. Until it is fully digested a person does not know “what it is”.

“He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.” (Deuteronomy 8:3)

Another item in the Ark was the “Manna” or word or God.

There is a lot here that I agree with from a painting with a big brush perspective, but some details that I question.

A 5 year old boy, holding his mothers hand as they leave Egypt, would not be be expected to vote on or join in the capture of the promised land. Wandering the wilderness for 40 years places him a 45 year old man when God gives the nation a second chance to obey. Was he dead or among the Warriors? I don't know for certain, but I suspect that he was there.

(oops Christmas chores. I have to go.)

 

[roger1440]

There is a lot here that I agree with from a painting with a big brush perspective, but some details that I question.

A 5 year old boy, holding his mothers hand as they leave Egypt, would not be be expected to vote on or join in the capture of the promised land. Wandering the wilderness for 40 years places him a 45 year old man when God gives the nation a second chance to obey. Was he dead or among the Warriors? I don't know for certain, but I suspect that he was there.

(oops Christmas chores. I have to go.)

The Bible is written in a fashion that would be most easily understood. It uses concepts that most people can comprehend. The root of the word “communication” is the word common. There must be a common ground. This common ground is poetry, allegory and symbolism.

 

[rosends]

I was careless in my wording.
(Mostly through laziness ... this horse had been beaten to death in this topic.)

The only part that I would stand firm on is that everyone needs to be forgiven since none of us (people, including Jews) keeps G_d's Law perfectly.

Well, I can' speak to the question of keeping laws perfectly. There have ben a lot of people alive so for all I know, someone has. Laws weren't given so that we couldn't follow them. But, yes, to err is human. So the divine gave us a system to ask for and receive, forgiveness.

 

[roger1440]

There is a lot here that I agree with from a painting with a big brush perspective, but some details that I question.

A 5 year old boy, holding his mothers hand as they leave Egypt, would not be be expected to vote on or join in the capture of the promised land. Wandering the wilderness for 40 years places him a 45 year old man when God gives the nation a second chance to obey. Was he dead or among the Warriors? I don't know for certain, but I suspect that he was there.

(oops Christmas chores. I have to go.)

Moses was “drawn out” and cleansed of the filth of Egypt. But he was not fully cleansed. He had killed a man and did not repent. In his mind he was justified. Therefore he was not worthy to reach the promise land. Shortly before he died, he did see the promise land in the distance.

 

[Theunis]

The Bible is written in a fashion that would be most easily understood. It uses concepts that most people can comprehend. The root of the word “communication” is the word common. There must be a common ground. This common ground is poetry, allegory and symbolism.

So let us simplify the matter and equate salvation with - Who will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
1. All who are forgiven their "sins". God looking into their hearts will know the reason(s) they sinned so let us then surmise he will forgive all
1.1 Is it not written that the only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost!
3. For some their salvation will be their good deeds.
4. For Jews and others their salvation would be by their own Laws

This is rather simplistic but who are we to sit here guessing as to what the criteria would be when the final judgement is at hand even if we find the relevant clues and passages in the OT and NT

N.B - Item 1 has reference:
This does not mean do as you please for your life may have been such that you may end up scrubbing toilets!
This is rather simplistic but who are we to sit here guessing of what the criteria would be when the final judgement is at hand even if we find the relevant passages in the OT and NT

 

[atpollard]

Well, I can' speak to the question of keeping laws perfectly. There have ben a lot of people alive so for all I know, someone has. Laws weren't given so that we couldn't follow them. But, yes, to err is human. So the divine gave us a system to ask for and receive, forgiveness.

... but the 'system' presented with the Law is not currently available. Hypothetically, I have my bird and flour; where do I bring them?

 

[roger1440]

Who will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven

Only those who do the will of God will enter the “Kingdom of Heaven”. God is not only a jealous God but also is a finicky god. God will not share his domain with the ungodly. God does not negotiate nor compromise. Long story short, it’s if God is saying, “it’s either my way or the highway, pick one”.

 

[roger1440]

Is it not written that the only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost!

Yes. Do you understand what it means?

 

[Theunis]

Only those who do the will of God will enter the “Kingdom of Heaven”. God is not only a jealous God but also is a finicky god. God will not share his domain with the ungodly. God does not negotiate nor compromise. Long story short, it’s if God is saying, “it’s either my way or the highway, pick one”.

The NT is all about love and forgiveness. To forgive would thus already appear to be a compromise.

You live in a new covenant so why do you use arguments from the old?
. The bible in my home language does not say jealous. It uses another word which can be translated to - Diligent, Industrious or Zealous.

 

[Theunis]

Yes. Do you understand what it means?

More than you will ever know. But it is a Christian concept and what I said is for them.
For the Jews their salvation is - as far as possible, to follow their Laws. As you believe so it will be unto you.

How do you know that earth will not be ""incorporated" into the Kingdom of Heaven as this could be a vast empire situated throughout the Universe. When this happens his "angels" will sort out the good fish and cast the bad fish back into the waters. It does not say into an everlasting abyss.
Where does the allegory start or end?

 

[roger1440]

More than you will ever know. But it is a Christian concept and what I said is for them.
For the Jews their salvation is - as far as possible, to follow their Laws. As you believe so it will be unto you.

How do you know that earth will not be ""incorporated" into the Kingdom of Heaven as this could be a vast empire situated throughout the Universe. When this happens his "angels" will sort out the good fish and cast the bad fish back into the waters. It does not say into an everlasting abyss.
Where does the allegory start or end?

I have no idea what u mean

 

[roger1440]

What are Jews saved from (option #3)

A third possibility is saved from sin.
Without getting all preachy, everyone falls short. The Law offered a solution that can no longer be performed (not since those temple burning Romans). The Bible offers another solution that, from my reading of it, works the same for everyone.

Ok, I'll bite. What is the solution?

 

[roger1440]

The NT is all about love and forgiveness. To forgive would thus already appear to be a compromise.

You live in a new covenant so why do you use arguments from the old?
. The bible in my home language does not say jealous. It uses another word which can be translated to - Diligent, Industrious or Zealous.

The sinner is forgiven, not the sin. You do know of the story of the woman caught in adultery in the Gospel of John? Jesus did not condemn the woman. He condemned the sin. He did tell her “leave your life of sin”. He is telling the woman to repent. Repentance is a returning back. In other words, go back to the point before you sinned. Granted, one can not turn back the hands of time. But one can and must acknowledge they had missed the mark. This is the first step to repentance.

 

[atpollard]

Ok, I'll bite. What is the solution?

A bit cliche, but John 3:16 works for a quick summary.
(The details each person must work out for themselves with God the final judge.)

 

[Flankerl]

... but the 'system' presented with the Law is not currently available. Hypothetically, I have my bird and flour; where do I bring them?

Nowhere because you aren't Jewish and wouldn't be able to offer anything up for sacrifice at the Temple.

 

[roger1440]

A bit cliche, but John 3:16 works for a quick summary.
(The details each person must work out for themselves with God the final judge.)

It seems that you saying salvation comes to the Jews by believing “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life”. If this is true, it must be shown by using Jewish scripture not Christian scripture. Jewish scripture can not be twisted to fit within Christian scripture. It must work the other way around. Christian scripture must be molded to fit within Jewish scripture. The people who wrote the Gospels were Jewish, writing for a Jewish audience and using Jewish theology. The starting point must be Jewish theology. Just because the Jewish temple was destroyed it does not mean Jewish Law was destroyed along with it. The Gospel writers knew this. The Gospel writers also knew the Law allows for reinterpretation.

 

[atpollard]

Nowhere because you aren't Jewish and wouldn't be able to offer anything up for sacrifice at the Temple.

Meh. Not that impressive a response.

Ok, a Jew has the appropriate grain/animal offering as prescribed in Deuteronomy and wishes to obey the law to obtain forgiveness for his oops. Where does he bring it?