How Does a Jew Attain Salvation?

[Intojoy]

Keep I'm mind, this thread is not about you. It's about "scripture"

Yawn

 

[roger1440]

The antithesis of being saved is being bound. Bondage robs us of freedom.

 

[rosends]

Hey buddy!
I'm not a scholar just a student.

I would never let any of my students use that as an excuse for shoddy research or a lack of intellectual integrity.

 

[atpollard]

Salvation was always available to the Jews, even before Moses’s time. Moses was a Law giver, not Law writer. Note that the Ten Commandments are written in stone. Being written in stone emphasizes that the Law is eternal, everlasting, without a beginning or end. Timeless

In modern English, the idiom "written in stone" usually implies more of an unchanging or non-negotiable quality.
How can we be sure that the symbolism of stone is to emphasize "eternal" rather than "non-negotiable"?

I was originally poking slight fun at the "ark" not being around before Moses (while the Jews were).
It was more quip than argument.
Sorry if the humor tone was lost in typing.

 

[Flankerl]

I'm speaking about the Jewish elders of the Jewish Yeshua movement. Not Rabbinic elders in Judaism.
Learn your history. The bar chochba revolt (excuse spelling please) included non Hebrew Christians and Hebrew Christians alike. They fought side by side until bar Cochba claimed to be the Jewish Messiah and when he did so the Messianic Jews cut from the fighting.

Meanwhile in reality the Christians never joined the Third Jewish-Roman war at all. Neither before or after he claimed to be the Moshiach.

So much for that.

He is the Messiah and because He is my desire to share Yeshua with the Jewish people is the evidence of my love for God and my love for Israel.

Yeah yeah that's Missionary work, which is forbidden on RF.

You might want to read the rules.

Let’s go back on topic, even for a brief moment. What is “salvation”? The root of the word is to “save”. To “save” from what? To “save” anything there must be an “adversary”.

Christianity and more recently Islam seem like good adversaries.

 

[atpollard]

Ah a Protestant. Cute.

Hey, what did we do to you? Everyone who hates Catholics is not a Protestant.
Actually, He sounds like he wants to camp in the Jewish tent.

Congratulations on YOUR new sect.

 

[atpollard]

The antithesis of being saved is being bound. Bondage robs us of freedom.

I'll play ... back on topic.

One possibility is Saved from physical harm.
That would require a place of refuge ... a place to call their own.
The ghettos provided some protection, through community, but from what little even I know of history, not nearly enough.
The modern nation provides greater protection. (Correct me if I am wrong, but Jews seemed better able to mount a defense in the Six Day War than in the Polish ghettos.)
The "HOW" Jews went from the vulnerability of being a people scattered in communities around the globe to having a place of their own sends shivers up my spine.

One possibility is saved from ... dissipation.
I am not sure what word to use, so that will have to do unless someone can come up with something better.
What happens to the tribes of Israel that stop following the Law and the just get assimilated into the surrounding people?
I need to be careful here, because I have a size 12 shoe and do not wish to end up with it in my mouth.
That said, the Torah appears to provide [something] that allows the decendents of Israel to maintain their identity even when living in another culture.
The culture and community and rules all combine to 'save' the Jews from ... well, ceasing to be Jews and being assimilated. (I need to find another way to word that that doesn't sound like the BORG.)

A third possibility is saved from sin.
Without getting all preachy, everyone falls short. The Law offered a solution that can no longer be performed (not since those temple burning Romans). The Bible offers another solution that, from my reading of it, works the same for everyone.

 

[Intojoy]

Well, there was a question. I answered it. Jewish believers - Jewish followers of Yeshua did fight against Rome alongside their Jewish brethren.

 

[Flankerl]

Hey, what did we do to you? Everyone who hates Catholics is not a Protestant.
Actually, He sounds like he wants to camp in the Jewish tent.

Congratulations on YOUR new sect.

Hell no. He's a Christian. You keep him.

 

[roger1440]

I'll play ... back on topic.

One possibility is Saved from physical harm.
That would require a place of refuge ... a place to call their own.
The ghettos provided some protection, through community, but from what little even I know of history, not nearly enough.
The modern nation provides greater protection. (Correct me if I am wrong, but Jews seemed better able to mount a defense in the Six Day War than in the Polish ghettos.)
The "HOW" Jews went from the vulnerability of being a people scattered in communities around the globe to having a place of their own sends shivers up my spine.

One possibility is saved from ... dissipation.
I am not sure what word to use, so that will have to do unless someone can come up with something better.
What happens to the tribes of Israel that stop following the Law and the just get assimilated into the surrounding people?
I need to be careful here, because I have a size 12 shoe and do not wish to end up with it in my mouth.
That said, the Torah appears to provide [something] that allows the decendents of Israel to maintain their identity even when living in another culture.
The culture and community and rules all combine to 'save' the Jews from ... well, ceasing to be Jews and being assimilated. (I need to find another way to word that that doesn't sound like the BORG.)

A third possibility is saved from sin.
Without getting all preachy, everyone falls short. The Law offered a solution that can no longer be performed (not since those temple burning Romans). The Bible offers another solution that, from my reading of it, works the same for everyone.

I’m having a hard time following you. You are going into many different directions at once. I can comment on several things you had mentioned but I don’t know where to start cause I don’t know your point.

 

[atpollard]

I’m having a hard time following you. You are going into many different directions at once. I can comment on several things you had mentioned but I don’t know where to start cause I don’t know your point.

I offered three different things that Jews might be saved from.
They should each stand alone.
Let me repost them singular.

 

[atpollard]

What are Jews saved from (option #1)

One possibility is Saved from physical harm.
That would require a place of refuge ... a place to call their own.
The ghettos provided some protection, through community, but from what little even I know of history, not nearly enough.
The modern nation provides greater protection. (Correct me if I am wrong, but Jews seemed better able to mount a defense in the Six Day War than in the Polish ghettos.)
The "HOW" Jews went from the vulnerability of being a people scattered in communities around the globe to having a place of their own sends shivers up my spine.

 

[atpollard]

What are Jews saved from (option #2)

One possibility is saved from ... dissipation.
I am not sure what word to use, so that will have to do unless someone can come up with something better.
What happens to the tribes of Israel that stop following the Law and the just get assimilated into the surrounding people?
I need to be careful here, because I have a size 12 shoe and do not wish to end up with it in my mouth.
That said, the Torah appears to provide [something] that allows the decendents of Israel to maintain their identity even when living in another culture.
The culture and community and rules all combine to 'save' the Jews from ... well, ceasing to be Jews and being assimilated. (I need to find another way to word that that doesn't sound like the BORG.)

 

[atpollard]

What are Jews saved from (option #3)

A third possibility is saved from sin.
Without getting all preachy, everyone falls short. The Law offered a solution that can no longer be performed (not since those temple burning Romans). The Bible offers another solution that, from my reading of it, works the same for everyone.

 

[roger1440]

That would require a place of refuge ... a place to call their own.

Yes
"God is our and strength,an ever-present help in trouble."
Psalm 46:1

 

[roger1440]

For 40 years the ancient Jews schlepped a gold crate through the wilderness of the desert. It wasn’t because they had too much free time on their hands. This crate solidified Judaism. It made Judaism more concrete. It gave purpose, direction and meaning. Some believe it contained 3 things others believe it contained 4.

 

[atpollard]

Yes
"God is our and strength,an ever-present help in trouble."
Psalm 46:1

I am not sure if personal experience is appropriate as a response, but it has been my experience that God seldom protects me from trouble but always seems to protect me through trouble. It may be different for those under the Law, but I think that history suggests that it is not.

 

[atpollard]

For 40 years the ancient Jews schlepped a gold crate through the wilderness of the desert. It wasn’t because they had too much free time on their hands. This crate solidified Judaism. It made Judaism more concrete. It gave purpose, direction and meaning. Some believe it contained 3 things others believe it contained 4.

Hebrews 9:4
Jar of manna
Staff that budded
Tablet with 10 commandments (would 4 be the broken tablets?)

I don't think that a missing ark is the glue that holds modern Judaism together.
I do believe that the God who wrote on those tablets is the glue.
Experience suggests, however, that God is less concerned with physical safety than most people.
He does not appear to be against it, he just seems to favor reliance on him come what may, over human self reliance.
(Or that's how I see/read it.)

 

[roger1440]

I am not sure if personal experience is appropriate as a response, but it has been my experience that God seldom protects me from trouble but always seems to protect me through trouble. It may be different for those under the Law, but I think that history suggests that it is not.

The verses I use, I use selectively. One item in the Ark was a rod. This rod was Moses’s staff or Aaron’s staff. There is a debate among the Jews whose magical stick it was. The Jewish Exodus starts with the Jews yearning to be free. This yearning is placed into the power, authority and supremacy of God. As long as the Jews place there trust in God, the Jews will prevail. How did the Jews defeat the Amalekites in chapter 17 in the book Exodus? Moses raised his hands with his rod.

One item in the Ark was the rod.

"God is our and strength,an ever-present help in trouble."

Psalm 46:1

 

[Intojoy]

Hell no. He's a Christian. You keep him.