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How Does a Jew Attain Salvation?

Intojoy

Intojoy

Member
Tumah said:
Say...what...now?
Click to expand...
Exactly.

I had to reevaluate everything I had learned in Sunday school once I was exposed to the teaching ministry of Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew.

Billy Grahm, Greg Laurie, Chuck Smith, none of these well known evangelicals know anything about this either.

The 5th new birth was a gentile proselyte

The 6th new birth was considered that if a direct descendant of King David ascended to the throne, that was a new birth. Both of these Nicodemus did not qualify for.

Yeshua used a rabbinical teaching style here with nik.

This is when the teacher begins with what is known first and then moves to the unknown.

Nicodemus asks "when I am old" because he knew he was born anew 4 times - "can I enter into my mother's womb again?"

It doesn't matter if you're young or old this is impossible.

Yeshua says:

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5-8‬ ‭ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/jhn.3.5-8.asv
 
Intojoy

Intojoy

Member
atpollard said:
I am going to leave the OT Bible commentary to Matthew Henry and the history lessons to those with more interest and experience, but your Eschatology appears to have the cart before the horse. Nothing is holding God back except God.

When Messiah comes, Israel will welcome him. It is not God waiting on Israel to get their act together, but rather Israel waiting for God to decide the time has come.

There have always been those who want the Jews dead, and God seems to have had no more trouble dealing with them than he had dealing with Haman. I see no recent 'total genocides', but rather a fairly strong nation of Israel. However, setting Israel aside, I am confident that God could preserve a single Jewish man and woman and rebuild his people if that was His desire. I find it inconceivable that anything could even come close to thwarting the plan of God. The Messiah will come at the hour "known only by the Father". No sooner, and no later. God is in the driver's seat.

I am unaware of any significant, modern Christian persecution of Jews. Could you site a news source?
Again, Jesus return when the Father says it is time. That is when the 'veil' will be lifted from the Jews and they will welcome their Messiah in faith.

The only 'pre-requisite' that I am aware of is the Great Commission and the desire of God that as many as possible be rescued before the day of judgement. The end times are not being driven by human efforts, but by a divine plan.

YMMV
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“I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly.”
‭‭Hosea‬ ‭5:15‬ ‭ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/hos.5.15.asv
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Intojoy said:
Exactly.

I had to reevaluate everything I had learned in Sunday school once I was exposed to the teaching ministry of Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew.

Billy Grahm, Greg Laurie, Chuck Smith, none of these well known evangelicals know anything about this either.

The 5th new birth was a gentile proselyte

The 6th new birth was considered that if a direct descendant of King David ascended to the throne, that was a new birth. Both of these Nicodemus did not qualify for.

Yeshua used a rabbinical teaching style here with nik.

This is when the teacher begins with what is known first and then moves to the unknown.

Nicodemus asks "when I am old" because he knew he was born anew 4 times - "can I enter into my mother's womb again?"

It doesn't matter if you're young or old this is impossible.

Yeshua says:

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5-8‬ ‭ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/jhn.3.5-8.asv
Click to expand...
I hope you can understand how that doesn't answer the question. You made an assertion, redefining the idea of "birth" and then imputed that definition to the Pharisaic thinking. When asked what you meant (which, to my min, implied a request for your logic and sources) you cited a Christian and gave no textual backing for your statement.

It is always dicey when you decide to tell other people what their theology teaches as if you know it better than they do.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Intojoy said:
Exactly.

I had to reevaluate everything I had learned in Sunday school once I was exposed to the teaching ministry of Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew.

Billy Grahm, Greg Laurie, Chuck Smith, none of these well known evangelicals know anything about this either.

The 5th new birth was a gentile proselyte

The 6th new birth was considered that if a direct descendant of King David ascended to the throne, that was a new birth. Both of these Nicodemus did not qualify for.

Yeshua used a rabbinical teaching style here with nik.

This is when the teacher begins with what is known first and then moves to the unknown.

Nicodemus asks "when I am old" because he knew he was born anew 4 times - "can I enter into my mother's womb again?"

It doesn't matter if you're young or old this is impossible.

Yeshua says:

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5-8‬ ‭ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/jhn.3.5-8.asv
Click to expand...
I think we both now that anybody can say anything they want. But if they want anyone to take them seriously, they need to bring proof.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Intojoy said:
No. The fact is that Christianity was considered a sect within Judaism in the first century.

When did that end?

It ended when Bar Cochba (forgive my spelling please) claimed to be the Messiah and the Jewish followers of Yeshua pulled out of the rebellion against Rome causing the rebellion to fail. That was when the final split from Judaism took place.

Now it was Augustine who instituted the allegorical method of interpretation for the purpose of de-jewishing the faith. Jewish elders were forbidden to attend the counsel of Nicea.

If one holds to a strict literal hermeneutic he ends up with the nation of Israel as the focal point of his theology. It is only when the literal interpretation is abandoned that replacement theology is presented.

The counterfeit church is Romanism, the Catholic Church.

The problem with evangelical denominations is that they lack a complete biblical Israelology. Which is very problematic in the study of the Law and the Prophets and the Writings.
And in terms of the Gospels and the Hebrew Christian epistles it is imperative to have an understanding of these writings with the light of a first century Jewish Believer's perspective.

The writings of Paul are written to the Gentiles thus they can be understood from a gentile vantage point. And this is important my Jewish beloved brother, the writings of Paul are pro Israel. Both the counterfeit church and the majority of evangelical churches adhere to replacement theology and that is how they excuse Christian anti-Semitism.

I am a gentile who believes the Messianic claim made by Yeshua based on my observation of the Jewish scriptures, I am a student of Ariel Ministries - Ariel.org
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I don't know why you are giving me this whole sermon. The first few centuries before Christianity came to power, they were not physically killing Jews and now the last almost century they are not killing Jews. So out of about 2,000 years, you got what? 300 years of no bloodshed? That's not very good planning on Jesus' part.
 
Flankerl

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Intojoy said:
It ended when Bar Cochba (forgive my spelling please) claimed to be the Messiah and the Jewish followers of Yeshua pulled out of the rebellion against Rome causing the rebellion to fail
Click to expand...

Hell no about the bold part. That's just ridiculous.


Intojoy said:
Jewish elders were forbidden to attend the counsel of Nicea.
Click to expand...

Why the heck would they want to attend a Christian Council ~300 years after that dude called Jesus died?


Intojoy said:
The counterfeit church is Romanism, the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...

Ah a Protestant. Cute.
 
Intojoy

Intojoy

Member
rosends said:
Did you even read that? A guy in 2012 wanting to adopt the term "born again" and apply it to Passover, and a citation from the discussion of a convert as no longer the biological child of his birth parent? And from this you invent some notion of a Jewish "born again"?
Click to expand...
No, I learned it here
Ariel.org
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
Intojoy said:
No, I learned it here
Ariel.org
Click to expand...
Oh. A Christian website. Please note that the page from which you copied your assertion provides not a single piece of attribution to the ideas being claimed. So I guess you feel ok just taking a Christian's view for it instead of deferring to actual Jews. So noted.
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
Intojoy said:
Jewish elders were forbidden to attend the counsel of Nicea.
Click to expand...
Can you quote your source please? Those who did attend the Counsel were by invitation ONLY. There were about 300 Christian Bishops. Constantine wanted a universal religion for the Roman Empire. The very word Catholic means, from Greek katholikos ‘universal”. Once the Council convened the Catholic Church was born.
 
Intojoy

Intojoy

Member
Flankerl said:
Hell no about the bold part. That's just ridiculous.




Why the heck would they want to attend a Christian Council ~300 years after that dude called Jesus died?




Ah a Protestant. Cute.
Click to expand...

I'm speaking about the Jewish elders of the Jewish Yeshua movement. Not Rabbinic elders in Judaism.
Learn your history. The bar chochba revolt (excuse spelling please) included non Hebrew Christians and Hebrew Christians alike. They fought side by side until bar Cochba claimed to be the Jewish Messiah and when he did so the Messianic Jews cut from the fighting. It was then that Jewish anti - Hebrew Christianity became heated and after the church lost its Jewish majority membership to the Gentiles it lost its foundational theology.

Calm down my son. I'm not forcing this on you, I'm just passing on what I've been taught. In my history with Jewish followers of Yeshua I have been blessed abundantly and overwhelmingly on the basis of the Abrahamic Covenant and Romans 15:27 that commands me to minister financially to Jewish believers.

Having been the victim of losing both parents at 8 yrs old, living on skid row in LA at 16, and enduring the loss of 3 siblings one 16, one 18, and 22, I have been forced to see life as very limited and very precious. My theology as a gentile believer in Yeshua's claim as the Jewish Messiah is that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel is the one true God. And by virtue of grace and mercy I have become the object of that God's omnipotent love.

I'm no angel, and I love to tease others as much as the next keyboard warrior out here, but my love for the Jewish people is proved by my works of love towards them. The world owes the Jews a lot of kindness and especially the church owes them.

If Yeshua is not the Messiah of Israel then my strong loyalties to him are without value. He is the Messiah and because He is my desire to share Yeshua with the Jewish people is the evidence of my love for God and my love for Israel.

He who keepeth Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps.
 
Intojoy

Intojoy

Member
Flankerl said:
Hell no about the bold part. That's just ridiculous.




Why the heck would they want to attend a Christian Council ~300 years after that dude called Jesus died?




Ah a Protestant. Cute.
Click to expand...
Flunker
Sorry couldn't help that one
8299d7bc452c5be84c89b2fa487ef0a4.jpg

Here, for you
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
Intojoy said:
I'm speaking about the Jewish elders of the Jewish Yeshua movement. Not Rabbinic elders in Judaism.
Learn your history. The bar chochba revolt (excuse spelling please) included non Hebrew Christians and Hebrew Christians alike. They fought side by side until bar Cochba claimed to be the Jewish Messiah and when he did so the Messianic Jews cut from the fighting. It was then that Jewish anti - Hebrew Christianity became heated and after the church lost its Jewish majority membership to the Gentiles it lost its foundational theology.

Calm down my son. I'm not forcing this on you, I'm just passing on what I've been taught. In my history with Jewish followers of Yeshua I have been blessed abundantly and overwhelmingly on the basis of the Abrahamic Covenant and Romans 15:27 that commands me to minister financially to Jewish believers.

Having been the victim of losing both parents at 8 yrs old, living on skid row in LA at 16, and enduring the loss of 3 siblings one 16, one 18, and 22, I have been forced to see life as very limited and very precious. My theology as a gentile believer in Yeshua's claim as the Jewish Messiah is that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel is the one true God. And by virtue of grace and mercy I have become the object of that God's omnipotent love.

I'm no angel, and I love to tease others as much as the next keyboard warrior out here, but my love for the Jewish people is proved by my works of love towards them. The world owes the Jews a lot of kindness and especially the church owes them.

If Yeshua is not the Messiah of Israel then my strong loyalties to him are without value. He is the Messiah and because He is my desire to share Yeshua with the Jewish people is the evidence of my love for God and my love for Israel.

He who keepeth Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps.
Click to expand...
Keep I'm mind, this thread is not about you. It's about "scripture"
 
Intojoy

Intojoy

Member
rosends said:
Oh. A Christian website. Please note that the page from which you copied your assertion provides not a single piece of attribution to the ideas being claimed. So I guess you feel ok just taking a Christian's view for it instead of deferring to actual Jews. So noted.
Click to expand...
1dc6fbbc0f4f3625104e83ab1eb7c9cc.jpg

Hey buddy!
I'm not a scholar just a student.
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
Let’s go back on topic, even for a brief moment. What is “salvation”? The root of the word is to “save”. To “save” from what? To “save” anything there must be an “adversary”.
 
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