I am saying nothing more deep than Jews are people, too ... so Jesus offer is as available to them, as it is to anyone else.
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How Does a Jew Attain Salvation?
- Thread starter Jonathan Hoffman
- Start date
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
To the Temple.
I think that the Muslims worshiping there at the moment will have a problem when you arrive and ask for a priest of Arron. But as you say, I am not a Jew, so tell me how that works for you.
roger1440
I do stuff
Orthodox Christianity teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus is a more perfect sacrifice then the Temple sacrifice. In order for this plot to play out the Temple must be removed from the equation. Thefore God or Jesus creates the destruction of the Temple. But when we read history and between the lines of the Gospels it is actually the destruction of the Temple that creates Jesus. I’m not saying the Gospels are not true. They must be read in the right language. I’m not talking about Greek or Hebrew. They were written in the language of allegory. The Jesus of the Gospels is the personification of Jewish scripture. To really, really dumb it down, Jesus ain’t a real dude.
Take the time and read this article. It’s from a Jewish web site.
https://www.ou.org/torah/machshava/the-god-papers/1-anthropomorphism-god-torah/
rosends
Well-Known Member
Sure the system is available. The bird and flour are only required when there is a temple. When there isn't, the system provides other recourse. The system is much bigger than you give it credit for.
Boo. Bad answer. Go yank someone else's chain.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Boo. Bad answer. Go yank someone else's chain.
Not my problem that you don't like the answer you are getting.
- There is no Temple
- There is more to getting forgiveness than Sacrifices at the Temple
And no your Jesus plays no part.
Could you point me to something in the Torah to support that?
I would not reject other sources, I am just aware of the Torah as the root of the system and am literal enough that if I were attempting to follow Deuteronomy to please G_d, I would prefer a source of similar authority to calm my conscience that it was OK that I was not literally following what Deuteronomy seems to clearly require of me (at least when there was a Temple).
I get the impression that G_d was not particularly sympathetic to the Northern Kingdom not worshiping in Jerusalem during the divided kingdom period. That makes me nervous (if I were a Jew) about assuming that G_d would let it slide today ... at least without SOMETHING more to hang my conscience on.
[thanks for pointing me in a direction ... if you find the time].
I have been working very hard to keep 'my Jesus' out of the discussion of a Jew following the rules in Deuteronomy to obtain forgiveness as provided for in Deuteronomy. I have done nothing but point out the obvious dificulty in obeying what was written and stating that it is a problem for Judaism to address (which I actually assume that it has).
A literal offering of the proscribed sacrifice does not seem possible.
You have done everything in your power to deliberately dance around my obvious point.
roger1440
I do stuff
After the destruction of the first Temple them folks didn’t cease to be Jews did they? After the destruction of either Temple it did create a void within Judaism that was quickly filled with other aspects of Judaism.
rosends
Well-Known Member
The first point to note is that a sacrificial system is only used to expiate a small group of sins. here always had to be other methods to resolve other sins which were not covered by sacrifices.
The text has a few very important quotes. One is the repeated refrain "bamakom asher yovchar" God says that sacrifices can be brought only "in the place that I will choose". This is the tabernacle/temple. The sacrificial system is to be carried out at the temple if there is a temple. Also, the text indicates that one has to be ritually pure to offer sacrifices, but we are all in a state of impurity today and we do not have the red heifer process to cleanse ourselves. Fortunately, we have a quote from Hosea "uneshalma farim sefataynu" that words of our lips will fill in for bulls -- that prayer replaces sacrifices. So we have a prayer system which effects the atonement which would otherwise be reached by sacrifices. Some additional reading: http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm
http://www.chabad.org/library/artic...sh/Atonement-in-the-Absence-of-Sacrifices.htm
here is a discussion of a few other verses and subtleties
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledg...-judaism-substitute-a-non-biblical-atonement/
roger1440
I do stuff
Which of my many views are widely held, LOL?
Jesus, the allegory.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Iyov 33:26
26 He prayeth unto God, and He is favourable unto him; so that he seeth His face with joy;
and He restoreth unto man his righteousness.
Tehillim 40:7
7 Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened;
burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required.
Bamidbar 14:17-19
17 And now, I pray Thee, let the power of the LORD be great, according as Thou hast spoken, saying:
18 The LORD is slow to anger, and plenteous in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation.
19 Pardon, I pray Thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of Thy lovingkindness, and according as Thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.'
Bamidbar 14:20
20 And the LORD said: 'I have pardoned according to thy word.
Mishlei 21:3
3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
There is more.
I would (personally) be a little nervous about placing too much faith in advice from Elihu to Job since G_d later threatens to kill him for giving bad advice about the character of G_d.
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"Tehillim 40:7
7 Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened;
burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required."
Literally speaking, this statement is not true.
Exodus 29:14
14 But burn the bull's flesh and its hide and its intestines outside the camp. It is a sin offering.
G_d has indeed required both a burnt-offering and a sin-offering.
The psalmist must be making a less literal point.
"Bamidbar 14:20
20 And the LORD said: 'I have pardoned according to thy word."
OK, credit where due. This is good.
The fact that the very next word is "Nevertheless" (a 'but') makes me want to dig a little deeper. Fortunately, nuances of Judiausm do not keep me awake at night, so I can live with it as a passing curiosity.
I mean how do we know fact from fiction.
We live in a world of turmoil, doubt and skepticism. All hope we have is to believe that it may be true or that we return as dust to earth or the breath of your God.
It is not blind faith, nay it is hope for a better life and the circumstances we live in
It was Jesus who said that a net would be cast over the earth and what the ""angels" would then do. He did not exclude Judaism nor any religion or non-religion nor any being on earth.
Consider the most holy event of Judaism - Yom Kippur - here Jews must apologize and set things right
with to all they have wronged - this is part of their salvation to have their names taken up in the "Book Of Life" for the coming year. I have witnessed the most horrible and vitriolic, yes I can even say, filth shown by a Jew to another, they did not do their duty as per partaking of Yom Kippur. I surmise that they will also be regarded as the bad fish