How does Feminism view Men?

[Akivah]

So I take it no books, and no videos where feminists are not hostile to men, or females speaking out hostilities but are still feminists? Nothing like that?

OK, can you point me in the direction of material like this?

 

[Akivah]

Traditionally men have been oppressors but as a feminist, I believe that men and women should be equals/partners. I voted 'partner'.

So another vote on how you'd like Feminism to be, but not how it currently actually is.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not really a slogan, but um, it seems to being saying women don't need men necessarily. Why, what did you make of it?

Looking at it more closely, we see that a fish could not possibly make use of a bicycle.
So the word "necessarily" is superfluous.
A more realistic interpretation of the analogy would be that men are utterly useless to women.

It's fun to look at such jibes between warring factions, eh?
We're reading meaning when it's really meaningless.

 

[Akivah]

Not really a slogan, but um, it seems to being saying women don't need men necessarily. Why, what did you make of it?

That slogan doesn't lead me to believe that Feminism views men as partners.

 

[Willamena]

Uh... we view men (and women) as humans? Is there some other way to view them?

You may be a feminist, but you're not feminism.

I would say answer C since it's ultimately about getting along with males as equals.

 

[dust1n]

OK, can you point me in the direction of material like this?

Sure, I'll sit down and compile some various media, but at work now, so you'll have to wait a bit.

 

[dust1n]

Looking at it more closely, we see that a fish could not possibly make use of a bicycle.
So the word "necessarily" is superfluous.
A more realistic interpretation of the analogy would be that men are utterly useless to women.

It's fun to look at such jibes between warring factions, eh?
We're reading meaning when it's really meaningless.

Reading meaning into the meaningless appears to be the case here...

It happens when you misquote someone in the first place. The actual phrase is, "Dunn coined the famous catch phrase: "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle," which was subsequently popularised by Gloria Steinem and became a popular slogan among feminists.[10][11]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irina_Dunn

That slogan doesn't lead me to believe that Feminism views men as partners.

If I were to say, "Men need women," would you agree with it? If you would, in what sense?

 

[Revoltingest]

Reading meaning into the meaningless appears to be the case here...

It happens when you misquote someone in the first place. The actual phrase is, "Dunn coined the famous catch phrase: "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle," which was subsequently popularised by Gloria Steinem and became a popular slogan among feminists.[10][11]"

Well, if I'm to over-analyze the insignificant, at least I'm doing to the correct phrase.

Btw, I'd prefer the conjunction, "as", to the preposition, "like", in the quote.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Your video, according to you, talks about male privilege. That's a bit different issue than your notion that feminists want greater rights for women than they want for men. Please defend that statement please with sources and links -- or withdraw it.

I just did, but I believe you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Do you think I'm saying that some feminists want an unequally-privileged society that favors females? No. That is not what I said. I said:

"If you look at their behavior and rhetoric from an objective angle, many of them aren't actually concerned with equality."

Translation: They're working for equality and want equality, but many have a skewed perception of what it is and how to get there. You can't ask me to provide direct evidence of that. What you can do is look at some raw data--which I just provided to you--and determine for yourself whether or not that's the case.

 

[Akivah]

The actual phrase is, "Dunn coined the famous catch phrase: "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle," which was subsequently popularised by Gloria Steinem and became a popular slogan among feminists.[10][11]"

If I were to say, "Men need women," would you agree with it? If you would, in what sense?

Obviously. Men need Women. Women need Men.

How do you interpret the slogan?

 

[dust1n]

Obviously. Men need Women. Women need Men.

But... they don't? I mean, men need women and women need men in order to keep the human race going, because populating the Earth necessitates people doing the nasty. Men and women often need other men and women to fulfill their desire to be with a member of the opposite sex. Sure. But no single man needs a woman. There is nothing about living, existing, and dying that requires a females presence, or for a female to sign off on it. If a dude wants to be entirely chaste his whole life, there is nothing stopping one from doing so. A dude could live a relatively nice life never having sex, or procreating or getting married, if a male chose to take this route. And that, would of course apply to women. This is the essence of the quote in question. I don't think it's trying to elude that in a very literal sense, sperm isn't even a necessary precondition, and only eggs are needed to procreate, thus, both men and females need each other. It's a statement about how individuals live their lives...

 

[Revoltingest]

But... they don't? I mean, men need women and women need men in order to keep the human race going, because populating the Earth necessitates people doing the nasty. Men and women often need other men and women to fulfill their desire to be with a member of the opposite sex. Sure. But no single man needs a woman. There is nothing about living, existing, and dying that requires a females presence, or for a female to sign off on it. If a dude wants to be entirely chaste his whole life, there is nothing stopping one from doing so. A dude could live a relatively nice life never having sex, or procreating or getting married, if a male chose to take this route. And that, would of course apply to women. This is the essence of the quote in question. I don't think it's trying to elude that in a very literal sense, sperm isn't even a necessary precondition, and only eggs are needed to procreate, thus, both men and females need each other. It's a statement about how individuals live their lives...

There are other ways to view "need".
If something calls to one in a very compelling way, it's fair to say it's needed.
But to need a mate (of either or both genders) will vary from human to human.
So how does feminism view men?
There's so much variation that I leave it up to the individual feminist.
It takes all kinds.

 

[dust1n]

So another vote on how you'd like Feminism to be, but not how it currently actually is.

"“the wounded child inside many males is a boy who, when he first spoke his truths, was silenced by paternal sadism, by a patriarchal world that did not want him to claim his true feelings. The wounded child inside many females is a girl who was taught from early childhood that she must become something other than herself, deny her true feelings, in order to attract and please others. When men and women punish each other for truth telling, we reinforce the notion that lies are better. To be loving we willingly hear the other’s truth, and most important, we affirm the value of truth telling. Lies may make people feel better, but they do not help them to know love.”

bell hooks

"“When women's sexuality is imagined to be passive or "dirty," it also means that men's sexuality is automatically positioned as aggressive and right-no matter what form it takes. And when one of the conditions of masculinity, a concept that is already so fragile in men's minds, is that men dissociate from women and prove their manliness through aggression, we're encouraging a culture of violence and sexuality that's detrimental to both men and women.”

Jessica Valenti

"“I'm going to go out on a limb here. I've thought a lot about this one, as a feminist, and as an author. How should traditional roles be portrayed? In fantasy literature there is a school of thought that holds that women must be treated precisely like men. Only the traditional male sphere of power and means of wielding power count. If a woman is shown in a traditionally female role, then she must be being shown as inferior.

After a lot of thought, and some real-life stabs at those traditional roles, I've come to firmly disagree with this idea. For an author to show that only traditional male power and place matter is to discount and belittle the hard and complex lives of our peers and our ancestresses.”"

Sarah Zettel

"“Today, we live in a vastly different world. The person more qualified to lead is not the physically stronger person. It is the more intelligent, the more knowledgeable, the more creative, more innovative. And there are no hormones for those attributes. A man is as likely as a woman to be intelligent, innovative, creative. We have evolved. But our ideas of gender have not evolved very much.”"

"“Gender is not an easy conversation to have. It makes people uncomfortable, sometimes even irritable. Both men and women are resistant to talk about gender, or are quick to dismiss the problems of gender. Because thinking of changing the status quo is always uncomfortable.”

Chimamanda Hgozi Adichie

"“Guys, you don't have to act "manly" to be considered a man; you are a man, so just be yourself. Don't let society make you believe you have to prove your masculinity to anyone because you don't. You are you and you are worthy, full stop.”"

Miya Yamanouchi

More random stuff of similar caliber from random non-book writer people of scholarship, and stuff I just came across the internet...

http://www.alternet.org/story/147626/5_stupid,_unfair_and_sexist_things_expected_of_men

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/05/when-men-experience-sexism/276355/

"Men shouldn’t be looked down upon for the roles they practice, regardless of how much testosterone courses through their veins. The “all-American man” should be viewed as the man who gets his job done at the end of the day, whether that’s building a house or running one."

http://www.theallstate.org/2015/02/05/gender-roles-affect-men-too/

More stuff:

http://imaginenoborders.org/pdf/zines/UnderstandingPatriarchy.pd

etc... will give more if needed...

 

[Madhuri]

So another vote on how you'd like Feminism to be, but not how it currently actually is.

Feminism is about creating gender equality. Traditionally men have held power and suppressed women. In some cultures though, woman have held more power. In our society, men are sometimes dis-empowered by women or by each other.
Feminism tries to create equality but to do so, we have to acknowledge where there is inequality. To say that men have traditionally been oppressors is not incorrect and it is also not incorrect to say that feminists believe men and woman should and can be equal.

If I look at my friends and immediate community, I see that men and women are partners. If I look at other cultures, I see men as oppressors. It's relative, hence why I answered the way I did originally, Does that make sense?

 

[psychoslice]

I think when we try to separate men from women, and try to fool ourselves that one is better than the other, that we then separate our selves from each other. To me it is childish, women are not better than men, and men are not better than women, this whole stupid idea is nothing more than the ego of whatever sex, that is trying to make itself better than the other. Women and men are just as stupid as each other, its that simple.

 

[Revoltingest]

Feminism is about creating gender equality. Traditionally men have held power and suppressed women. In some cultures though, woman have held more power. In our society, men are sometimes dis-empowered by women or by each other.
Feminism tries to create equality but to do so, we have to acknowledge where there is inequality. To say that men have traditionally been oppressors is not incorrect and it is also not incorrect to say that feminists believe men and woman should and can be equal.

If I look at my friends and immediate community, I see that men and women are partners. If I look at other cultures, I see men as oppressors. It's relative, hence why I answered the way I did originally, Does that make sense?

To expand upon what you say, I notice that oppression is not always one gender against the other.
Examples.....
Many women here oppose abortion.
Many men here support the military draft of men.

Moreover, all this can happen without the need for misandry or misogyny.
Hatred is unnecessary for someone to compromise someone else's liberty.

 

[Ultimatum]

It is interesting that a philosophical concept derived during the French Revolution that resulted in equal legal standing for all men not give the same rights to women in its application, either in France or America. Where was egalitarianism when women couldn't vote?

Misleading vividness.
It's this sort of bullet dodging that makes me scoff at the inherent double-standard that you're posturing currently.

 

[dust1n]

Misleading vividness.
It's this sort of bullet dodging that makes me scoff at the inherent double-standard that you're posturing currently.

You know who else dodged a bullet? Olympe de Gouges when she published Declarations of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen. Unfortunately, she did catch the guillotine though. Treason and all.

Anyways, your incredibly vague rebuttal is duly noted.

 

[Ultimatum]

You know who else dodged a bullet? Olympe de Gouges when she published Declarations of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen. Unfortunately, she did catch the guillotine though. Treason and all.

Anyways, your incredibly vague rebuttal is duly noted.

More misleading vividness.

 

[Akivah]

I think when we try to separate men from women, and try to fool ourselves that one is better than the other, that we then separate our selves from each other. To me it is childish, women are not better than men, and men are not better than women, this whole stupid idea is nothing more than the ego of whatever sex, that is trying to make itself better than the other. Women and men are just as stupid as each other, its that simple.

My concept isn't that one sex is better than another, it is that each sex is different from the other. And we are better together.